Bae Lab Best Bits Part 2! Founders' Growth Guide: Podcasting, Scaling, and Community Building | Compilation Episode

Amardeep Parmar: 0:04

So Hassan like why should founders even be thinking about personal brand?

Hassan Kubba: 0:08

Because I know some founders are quite shy, for example yeah, I think personal brand is just a thing that's going to keep growing and I think it's the natural way for people to solve. What is a brand? A brand is sort of a reputation or an association that people have. You know, hopefully it's a positive association, hopefully they have a good kind of. It's literally like having a reputation, but for something that's like a group of people, that's kind of faceless. A company is like. A company literally means a group of people, right, and the point of a company is that exists. You can replace the people. The company will still exist. That's the idea of a company is that it exists. You can replace the people. The company will still exist. That's the idea of having sort of a separate entity.

Hassan Kubba: 0:49

But I think the personal brand thing is just huge and we've all seen it. We've all seen how the most like we're moving away.I think there's this thing about the 20th century where it was about big brands because it was all about economies of scale. It was all about, like, factory and assembly line production, and so it was all about the brands. And I think we're moving away from that now to people. And you see that in that even, for example, Tim Cook has more followers on social media than Apple, as the company has, and people are more interested in him, and this is Tim Cook, not the founder, not super charismatic guy, no one. I don't really hear people raving about Tim Cook right, because he, you know, I mean so but he still has more followers, let alone people like Elon Musk, you know more followers, followers than Tesla or SpaceX, let alone, I don't know, think of anybody else, any big kind of names.

Hassan Kubba:  1:44

Nowadays, it's more about the people and brands will still exist as companies and that's still valuable to build. We're not taking anything away from that. But there's something people would love to hear the story. So, even if you have a brand, people like to know the story of the founders. They like to connect to the people behind it and oftentimes the story of the company is the story of the founders.

Hassan Kubba: 2:05

You know? That's. That's the key is like how did the company get here? Well, the founders had this idea, they were facing this problem, they had this insight and they decided to do this.So, yeah, I really think that personal brand is just going to keep growing more and more based on the social media kind of world that we live in. That's only going to become stronger. Um, I think more people, more CEOs, are going to start to become more and more outspoken and develop and build their personal brands. Um, because it's just a very, very valuable way to get attention. It's a very, very valuable way to get attention for free, pretty much, yeah, like think of. The other example comes to mind is Richard Branson, who was very early into the personal branding game. He's much more well-known than Virginist right, and it's key, and he's always used it as a clever way to get media to get attention, even before you know social media and all of that.

Amardeep Parmar: 2:59

I think you've. You've put your personal brand in many different ways right. So you've obviously got your book, you've done a podcast in the past, you've got newsletters, you've got your writing, you've got guesting on other people's podcasts like this. There's so many different ways to go about it. I think that overwhelms a lot of people. And let's say, somebody is now as a founder they're quite early stage in their business. What's maybe the first steps they should start thinking about before they start trying to build their personal brand?

Hassan Kubba: 3:27

The first steps to think about.I think personal brand is mostly about content marketing. Right, we call it content marketing, but it's about content. It's about writing stuff and sharing it, like a tweet is content, you know. A linkedin post is content. A book is content, a video everything is content, whether it whether it's just an interview you're doing and it's off the cuff, or whether you've pre-planned it and you had copywriters work on it or whatever. Ultimately, it's going to come from content and content.

Hassan Kubba: 3:54

When you're copywriting, what you have to think about is who is it for? What am I trying to say? What are the values here? One of the things, one of the lenses I like to use, is what is the transformation I'm helping people make? What's the transformation my company helps people make? You know it helps them get from A to B. My company helps people get from A to B. My startup. Okay, what is A and what is B, and who are they and why did I do that and did I face it?

Hassan Kubba: 4:14

Maybe it's like I was scratching my own itch. I was facing the problem and I decided to solve it. Or maybe it comes from another angle and I have to use other people's stories, but there's something linked to why am I the one who started this company? You know why me and I think that is the first thing to think about is to think about why is it that you've started this company, this startup, this organization? What's your story? 

Hassan Kubba: 4:46

You don't have to like go super in depth, it doesn't need to be like a therapy session, but when you're brainstorming, you should go deeper than you would probably publicly share and then think, okay, how much do I want to share publicly? How much of that do I want to show as the thing? What do I want to be known for? People naturally put you in like buckets in their head, like this is something that people have known so well in branding, positioning, um, and you have to think, okay, what bucket am I in? Am I just like in this? Can I stand out in some way? Can I define my own sort of bucket, in a way, the category that, what I'm known for? Am I the? You know the the what? How can we get to some specific examples? Am I like, oh, the the e-commerce guy who's like doing gym you know, shaping how gym clothes are. Or am I like the one who's trying to get humanity to Mars, you know, trying to get us to space. My, the, is what do you want to be known for and what category is that? Is it, are you, or are you just another? You know, shampoo company, shampoo came to my mind, but essentially you want to think about is it just another SaaS business, right? Or is it something more specific to my target audience? Because it doesn't need to be to the?

Hassan Kubba: 6:05

You know, branding isn't necessary to everyone, it's who you're targeting and so, or am I solving a particular problem they're facing? Am I saving them money? Am I getting them more sales? Am I, you know, whatever it might be, am I making them look good to their boss? And so you want to know what problem that is that you're solving and why it's you and how they can kind of get to know you as a personality, how, how you're faced. You know I always encourage like CEOs to be like yeah, why don't you go on that video? You know that explainer video, why isn't it you? It doesn't have to be, but it could really help and that's a well-known thing like a CEO, to kind of build that relationship and build that audience. So these are the sorts of things. I've thrown a few ideas out there, but it's all about starting kind of strategically of like what do I want to be known for? I like to think of it as reputation. Personal brand is like a reputation. What reputation do I want to build for myself? What do I want to be known for? What are people going to think of me as?

Hassan Kubba : 6:56

Quick example, just to wrap up this whole smorgasbord of ideas and thoughts, I was doing a marketing agency for local businesses, so I was working with like dentists and I don't know tile businesses, a catering company, et cetera. My first business is when I first started out, and in their minds this is like 10 years ago, their minds they thought of me as the internet guy, like they didn't care, like they didn't think I was just doing websites or I was just doing SEO or I was just doing a new logo for them, because branding just meant logo to them. Right, you have to think of what they think of it. And so to them I was just the internet guy and in fact sometimes they abstract it out to just the computer guy. And so one day I got a call from one of the managers of one of my clients to be like Hasan, the printer isn't working. What can we do? I'm like I've done your website. What have I got to do with the printer? Um, and that's the thing. It's because in the category, in their heads, the reputation is I'm the computer guy. Right, that that's just how they saw it.

Hassan Kubba: 8:00

So that’s the key is to understand, not what you think of yourself, what do other people think of you, how they categorize you, because people probably think of you less than you might imagine and so they're just going to jump to quick judgments, quick um assumptions like oh yeah, he's, he's software, he does this software like this crm software, okay, cool, and that's it. And it's like no, but you're trying to nuance it or something. But it's tough, and that's what you want to get ahead of that and be strategic about it and get known for something. And basically that's what personal brand is for is to be strategic about the communications there and the reputation you want to build and the category or bucket you want to be put in.

Amardeep Parmar: 8:36

Community building right. So why should startups, founders, investors, even though we be thinking about this? Why should people care about building a community, even though you'd be thinking about this. Why should people care about building a community?

Arfah Farooq: 8:46

Yes, I feel like community is like the biggest life hack, especially when it comes in terms of building your network and building trust with your customers. It depends on how you see it right. If you're a founder, if you're building a community for them. A community isn't an audience. A community is when they interact with each other so they get to benefit of each other. Um, an example of that is if I talk about it from a product perspective. 

Arfah Farooq: 9:10

There was a time when I was freelancing for this like it was like a parent app for them to give away flight goods in the hacking area, was it was launching in the hacking area. That's really beneficial, right, because you're, and the way we did that was very hands-on. We literally went to the London fields. We literally like speaking to parents, then we brought them in together so that they can start speaking to each other, and then it's like, oh, there's now an app and actually that building. Then that real life community then translates to like app community. But then on the flip side, there's like, obviously, like the types of community building I do is very specific to like I guess the professional workplace, so, um, Muslamic makers is the Muslim in tech community.

Arfah Farooq:  9:37

The reason why I say it's the biggest networking hat. I set this up eight years ago. I am known like. People know who I am, people know what I do because ultimately I built this platform where people get to connect and people think I'm extroverted but I'm not like I am the awkward turtle in a, in a network, in a networking situation, because I find it really hard to actually go people and introduce myself. But because people already know me, or because I'm the one introducing the panel, people will come up to me.

Arfah Farooq: 10:14

So it's great like I don't have to do that hard bit because actually people already know who I am and I think like there's just so much like goodness in like just building, like that platform, because being like a connector and being like connecting the dots, it's almost like the results are never instant when it comes to community building it. It pays dividends over time but ultimately it's like building all of that. It builds trust. I think trust is probably I would say is number number one reason of like building community is you build that trust, um within, like your group, let that be your customers, let that be kind of your professional workplace, wherever it is that you're actually like building that community, is that people like actually start to trust you and people start to trust other community members and then, off the back of that, you actually like build it together and I think what's interesting as well is that many people like the idea of a community, but a lot of these people have actually done it successfully and well right.

Amardeep Parmar: 11:12

So what are some of the things that you think that when people are new to community building, they often get wrong and you think that maybe you can help adjust their mindset there?

Arfah Farooq : 11:21

Yeah, specifically. So I normally talk about this from like the five C's um, which, the way I see it, it it's almost like create. Like actually, if you're looking to create, why are you looking to create it and what kind of community are you looking to create? Because people don't realize that communities come in different types. So there's things like communities of practice, which are very specifically around kind of skill swapping, etc. So, for example, when I worked in government it was product manager. I used to run a product manager and delivery manager. That's a community of practice. It's around a profession.

Arfah Farooq : 11:48

Then you might have communities of action, which might be protests or a community of consumers. So it really you got really first of all specify what type of community you're doing, because that type of activity you're going to do is going to like differ. Then, when you're thinking about connecting, it's all about, okay, it's user personas. Is you literally got to think about your community member as a user persona, like who are they, what problem are they facing, what do you need to do? And then you kind of like take it from that and then I would say, like, with collaboration, again, you've just got to again think about who you're going to collaborate with. But the two things that I would say is like it's really important to care about your community.

Arfah Farooq: 12:28

I remember when, um, all the web3 nft hypes came right and all of a sudden people were creating all these communities. As somebody who's a community builder, I was like looking in and being like people are just doing this to make money. People were just creating all these nfts then creating this discord community, and I asked recently in an nft group I'm part of, like what's happened to these communities and it was interesting because it was a learning thing that some nft communities are actually doing quite well, like Manchester United, for example, who created nft for like their, their kind of fans, but then those people that like did it for just like money and hype that like created random like monkey pictures and then whatever it was you know art things.

Amardeep Parmar:  

They do pivot to AI right.

Arfah Farooq: 

Yeah, it's that thing.

c  13:12

Like so care, I think, is very important, because if you don't care about your community, you're not going to be consistent, which is, I guess, the last seat. So you really have to really care about your problem and like care about what you're solving for right and care about that community.

Amardeep Parmar: 13:28

I think when people are first trying to set up the community, that initial layer of like, how exclusive do I make it? It's really tough to decide because you see so many people trying. So, for example, there's people trying to be general founder communities and, yes, founders is a sub-segment but do these people have nothing common with each other to have that tight bond? And if they don't, then are they going to stick around? Are they going to have that loyalty? So let's say, somebody's trying to set up a community which is related to their company. So let's say you get a lot of people. For example, they've got a fintech, they're trying to set, got a fintech, they're trying to help a fintech community. How wide do you go with that Like, how would you go about starting those first steps for a new community? How would you think about who to exclude and who to include?

Arfah Farooq: 14:14

Yeah. So I'd say really, so, really. Again, it comes down to there's got to be alignment, right. So again, like if you're creating like I don't kno.  Again, like if you're creating like I don't know, a fintech founders community, that in itself is great because you're already nailing in, right. It's very specific to the fact of you're a founder but you're in the fintech space. Great.

Arfah Farooq: 14:33

Okay, now is it general? Is it anyone from any stage? Could you be MVP, could you be pre-idea, could you be series a? Or actually do you need to nail in further and be like this is a fintech founders community for people who are kind of very early stage, great, early stage, boom. Okay. Now it's even more specific because actually all those people are on a very similar journey, so actually they're more likely now to bounce off each other, right?

Arfah Farooq: 14:59

Um, that's not to say that those people can't learn from series a people and, like I said, those people can be brought into the community at specific times. Let that be an event, let that be, etc. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're the. They're the people that need to be inside the community in terms of the chat or whatever it is, etc. And again, those people are probably too busy anyways for the community, right. So again, you've got to be very kind of specific. So it's like okay, cool, now you've kind of not kind of kind of really specifically nailed down that on that. Okay, is there another subset? Or maybe it's a sharia compliant fintech community or something like that. Great, okay, now it's another layer in the in the sense of okay, actually, are you, are you working the fintech space and you're trying to make your product sharia compliant? Great, that's another layer, right. So it's again, it's just really kind of really nailing in and I always say, right, start.

Arfah Farooq:  15:49

So, even though what I'm saying I'm going to now contradict myself, I say start a community selfishly, because what's the benefit to you? Because, if the benefit, if you, if you're going to benefit from it, you're more likely to stick at it. So, yes, community work is selfless, but actually it has to start selfishly, and if it starts selfishly, you're more likely to stick at it, which then leads to the selflessness, if that makes sense. So that's kind of how I often see it, and when people come to me, it's like but why, why should this thing exist and why should you be the person to do it and why do you want to do it and if it's a simple answer of yeah, I just think I can monetize this thing and I can do it. It's just it's not gonna work. It's not good. People are gonna see through that like people are gonna see through that. People are gonna know you're not genuine.

Arfah Farooq:  16:33

We hope you're enjoying the episode so far. We just want to give a quick shout out to our headline partners, HSBC Innovation Banking. One of the biggest challenges for so many startups is finding the right bank to support them, because you might start off and try to use a traditional bank, but they don't understand what you're doing. You're just talking to an AI assistant or you're talking to somebody who doesn't really understand what it is you've been trying to do. HSBC have got the team they've built out over years to make sure they understand what you're doing. They've got a deep sector expertise and they can help connect you with the right people to make your dreams come true. So if you want to learn more, check out hsbcinnovationbanking. com. 

Amardeep Parmar :

And how does the sustainability of this differ when looking at paid versus free model as well? How do you define an anchor client? Who's the most important clients to be thinking about when you're looking at product development?

Srishti Chhabra‍: 17:19

Yeah. So I think in the product world there's a lot of discussion around your ideal customer profile, right, you kind of think, hey, I have product X and these are the kind of clients who need X. So, for example, in my world, you look at clients that have a working capital shortfall or they have less working capital compared to other clients, and then that's basically your ideal customer profile to sell a working capital product. Now, the problem is in that approach, you have a product first and a customer second. Right, and that's exactly what I'm trying to change, and there are a lot of tech companies who've already changed that. Right, like Amazon is a customer-obsessed company. Right, they look at the customer first.

Srishti Chhabra‍: 18:04

So, from my perspective, an anchor client is somebody you know they have a problem and they're willing to solve it with your help and the problem is big enough. So, for example, I work at C2FO. I worked with 21 of the you know Fortune 100 companies in the world. Sorry, Fortune 100 companies in the world. I worked with Amazon, Walmart, BT, Philips, you name it and there are so many clients where people at those organizations are super frustrated with a certain problem. They might not be able to solve it, but we can solve it because of our technological know-how, our maybe connections with the bank, because we work at a fintech and with those clients, you know what it's so exciting to go on the journey of discovering the problem right and then you can go away.

Srishti Chhabra‍:  18:56

You could say, okay, I have a client who's super interested, motivated, they want to solve a problem. This is a problem they want to solve. Then you go do your business case in the back end, right? I'm not saying the anchor client means it's your entire market, right, but it tells you about an interesting problem people are so passionate to solve. You can go in the back end, figure out if it's a big enough problem to solve and then you can go on that journey with them to solve it right. Like one of our advisors, Frederick Spock, for example. You know he used to be chief procurement officer for Philips, Siemens, Huawei. He works with us and he's so passionate about these products, right? So I love even working with advisors like that who are passionate about the problems they're trying to solve, because that'll get you there, right? So I think it's more about obsessing with the problem and a customer who's motivated as well to solve the problem than it is to take a product to an ideal customer.

Amardeep Parmar : 19:53

And we'll seem to put that part as well there. So, with these customers who are really passionate about a problem, how do you get them to engage with you to help solve the problem together, as opposed to shipping around with different other people to see if they can get a less perfect solution? How do you get them engaged. Like no, we're going to get the best solution for you to solve what your problem is?

Srishti Chhabra‍:  20:11

Yeah, I mean, it's a very good question and it will be different for everybody, right?

Srishti Chhabra‍:  20:15

Like, if you're a startup, right, and you don't have existing clients, then I think that you're at a completely different place. So, like, say yourself, you would go to a conference, you'll meet somebody who you want to be a client for you. I would say, talk about them like their day-to-day, ask them what are their priorities, what are their challenges of meeting their priorities, and I think that gets you to a very good place with them, because suddenly they'll tell you, like my priority is x, it keeps me up at night and I cannot solve it and I need some help. I, on the other hand, have a little bit more privilege, right, because I have so many clients on this platform, uh, that I work for at a fintech, so I can join any of these calls that we do with our clients and then ask them the same question. But the challenge is the same, right, if you go to somebody and you talk about yourself, it's very different to you go to somebody else and you ask them what keeps you up at night?

Amardeep Parmar: 21:18

Looking at that as well. So internally right If you're not. Traditionally people used to go, you've got the team that are looking at that as well. So internally right if you might. Traditionally people used to go. You've got the team that are looking at product development, and how do you get them to have that relationship with the clients? And how do you track your team internally to make sure that they are listening to the client's problems, as opposed to it being a mandate from somebody higher up in the company, like you need to build this, and how do you keep that relationship well within the company?

Srishti Chhabra‍:  21:40

Yeah, I mean, this is exactly why I was hired. So I ran relationship management for EMEA before moving to this global product and one of the reasons my chief product officer, chief product and tech officer, kind of quoted was I want to move this to this product letter, right, um, and the how, honestly, is the same as for anybody else. If you're a relationship manager, right, and there's a how, how do I understand the client's problems? And, honestly, it's all about asking open-ended questions, setting up those monthly calls with the clients, following up and making sure the other person is feeling heard and you're transparently informing them of how I'm going to get there right. Same with product right, heard, and you're transparently informing them of how I'm going to get there. Right. Same with product. Right, you've got to get product on the call.

Srishti Chhabra‍: : 22:31

So what we are doing at C2FO at least my team, so I have three different teams, we are setting up three different personas that we're targeting. For these personas. We're going through relationship management initially and sales and saying, hey, we're going to reach out to these clients and ask are you interested in talking to us about product development? People who are saying, yes, we're forming these little hubs of these personas. So we've got procurement, we've got treasury and now we're also looking at the IT persona. We're developing these hubs where we get in touch with these people, one-on-one with the product manager, every month or so, max every quarter, where we go through like, okay, what are your pinpoints, how are you thinking about our product, how does it fit in your portfolio, and then kind of go from there.

Srishti Chhabra‍:  23:19

But the most important thing here is you have to hold the relationship. I don't think you can rely on somebody else having that relationship, which a lot of banks are structured this way. So the bank has a relationship manager, right, who's responsible for bringing on on a call, different product people, and I think I don't know, I don't love that way of working.  I understand the need for it because at scale you really do need somebody holding the account's best interest at heart. You can't just like bombard an account with 10 different things. So that has to be looked after, uh.

Srishti Chhabra‍:  23:59

But the key, I think from a product perspective, is having direct relationship.

Amardeep Parmar‍: 

So, Anand, great to talk to fellow podcaster on here and obviously you've been building your podcast quite some time now. What's been the point of that for a business, right? So why should business people consider even going into podcasting?

Anand Dattani : 24:16

Yeah, it's a really good question. Uh, firstly, thanks for having me on. It is lovely to connect with a fellow podcaster and friend. But the the interesting thing for me and I'll set that presence now is that I started a podcast purely out of a huge interest I had and I did it over lockdown and then over time, as I've niched, my business has come up. But obviously there'll be people listening who will be okay, I've got a business. Now. I'm thinking about podcast and a lot of it. In the beginning, I'll admit, I didn't understand the scope of how.

Anand Dattani : 24:40

I don't know if powerful seems like a cliche word to use, but it can be in both a personal and professional sense. So even if people are juggling between both, there's huge values on both sides. But on the business side it's one of the best marketing tools you can think of. So I think the type of people, especially if you're a founder or a small business depending on the studies, there's like 50% of founders or SMBs owners who actually listen to podcasts. So if you're targeting that kind of audience, you will find them in the podcasting space, because generally these are people who are interested in growing themselves or interested in growing their business interested in growing themselves or interested in growing their business and podcast becomes a great way to find that kind of information while you're on the go in a busy lifestyle because you're not forced to sit through a one hour seminar or you're not forced to sit and watch a YouTube video.

Speaker 5: 25:33

You can be like, okay, I'm in the car or, all right, I'm cleaning my room and I haven't got enough time, let me just listen to to something. So you're automatically being able to go into a platform that is targeting probably the people that you need, and medium-sized, like business workers or owners. The number actually grows, so the higher you get in the smb space, anyway, you're actually reaching more of those guys. So, marketing wise, yeah, it's been an excellent realization that it's not just a place where people listen to stuff like call her daddy no, no disrespect to that. It's great, but that's. You know. You think that, okay, am I going to find the right people here? And you definitely can, because podcast opens the door for any type of subject conversation.

Amardeep Parmar: 26:16

You mentioned how the podcast led to your business idea. Can you tell us more about that? So how did the experience of interviewing people lead to ideas and customer research that could then create a company?

Anand Dattani: 26:28

Yeah, it's a really good point and it's a really nice or like serendipitous time that you're asking this, because I, yeah, started the podcast in 2001 and without a clear vision of where it was going to go uh, something that I wouldn't recommend to someone. But it's also to make the point that you can do it this way. You know if you're, if you're starting off with like, yeah, but I really want to do a podcast because I have something that I want to share on a stage that could potentially and I put that word potentially reach a lot of people. But because I was collecting people's personal family history and the impact that's had on how they then grew up and what they went on to do. There are a lot of like indirect things I realized about myself and about the commonalities that you see between guests, and that was, firstly, by like, understanding that generational journey that your family have been on. It helped people build a appreciation for the things that they've been through and also how some things like the concept of risk and entrepreneurship has always existed, but it's changed. So a lot of people they come from backgrounds where their parents or grandparents moved country because they had to, they were taking a risk or, you know, they had an entrepreneur mindset because they wanted to provide a better life for their family. Because that's happened, lot of the people I speak to and of course, you know a lot of the time we're speaking to people who it's worked out well for them, but they are able to take their own risks because their family took a different set of risks that set them up for a life where it's like, okay, I don't need to worry about fending for my children. Where it's like I need to leave country to do it, but I can now look at things that are going to create a positive impact on the world. Right, so I can now leave my job and then put the money that I've saved up into starting a climate change business, because I really strongly believe about climate change. 

Anand Dattani: 28:27

So when those kind of stories of how much people understand about themselves and their identity and why they should now have an appreciation and a determination to be like I'm going to go on and serve my own family legacy well by doing what I really believe in it made me realize that the podcasting itself. It was one way of doing these conversations, but I wanted to now scale that through something like a tech platform, which, again, the more I heard guests talk about starting a tech platform of their own, I'm like man, I really want to do this. So then I thought why not create an app that encourages people to collect these family stories themselves, rather than coming on a podcast to do it, because, at the end of the day, there'll be certain things in their family journey that they probably want to maintain within their family right To then share with. I want to hear from my grandparents because I want my grandkids to hear it. I don't necessarily want to tell Anand the full details in a one-hour episode that's going to shoot out to his audience. So then that led to create Lifetimes, which is encouraging people to collect media, either in the form of audio, video or pictures, store it on a family timeline and preserve it. So, yeah, their grandkids can know something about their great granddad that we didn't have the opportunity to know it.

Anand Dattani: 29:41

So, again, if you ask me a year ago, if you were my like business mentor, you could have probably helped me figure out this idea. But if you're like, oh, hey, you're going to create a tech platform, I'll be like no, but then just naturally, over time, I'm like, okay, this idea just kind of formed because there was suddenly started to be some like indirect benefits of my conversations that were enlightening me to go on that journey.

Amardeep Parmar:

Have you got any final words? 

Anand Dattani: 30:08

Yeah, thanks so much. Probably just just speak to people, man, you know like podcasting is obviously super powerful in making social connection. But back to that whole point I said about growing your network. That increases your surface area of luck. Just go out, speak to people. I know it can be daunting and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the whole loneliness epidemic since COVID, but founders can be some of the loneliest people, um, and every conversation doesn't have to be a what's my ROI with that person. Just being able to maintain that like emotional uplift of speaking to people uh is is probably it helps people going, it helps like keep away disease and all the fun stuff. But just, yeah, just speak with people , it's great.

Amardeep Parmar: 30:52

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