Meet The Founder with NASA, SpaceX & NFL Teams As Clients w/ Raj Thiruchelvarajah | Hytro

00:00
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
So we've got a whole Hytro space programme now. So were part of the Polaris dawn mission. We had all four astronauts wearing and utilising Hytro in space.

00:08
Amardeep Parmar
That's Raj Thiruchelvarajah, he's the co founder of Hytro, which make blood flow restriction.

00:14
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Products with amazing clients helping Formula One deal as well. So again, I've been like a Formula One fan my whole life to then cut a deal with them and they came to us about that as well. So we've got some big NFL teams now using our products like Atlanta Falcons and we have products sold to Buffalo Bills, Washington Commanders.

00:31
Amardeep Parmar
Despite all these massive highs, there's also been some lows. Success actually leads to more work. Yeah, you can be burnt out and be successful at the same time. I can relate with Raj hasn't given up.

00:42
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Like I'm at my limit, I really am. But you got to keep going.

00:47
Amardeep Parmar
If you want to hear from Raj, if you want to understand how he literally got his products out of this world while also being humble and kind at the same time.

00:54
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And got another space mission next month.

01:01
Amardeep Parmar
Welcome back, Raj. For the audience who don't know, Raj is an OG of BAE HQ who's episode number four. So if you want to hear the origin story of how he got to where he is and what his logic behind building his business was, check that out. But today we want to talk about everything since, right? How have you gone from where you were to where you are today? Have you scaled. How are you still alive as a business? All those different questions, right? But let's start off with what's been some of the highlights. What's been the coolest stuff in the last two years or so.

01:26
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Firstly, thank you very much for having me back on. It's been what, 200 episodes since so been a long time. Firstly on the highlights, first I want to say well done to you guys. I think from where were at the beginning two and a half years ago, I think I was on this pod and I remember a few months before that got a cold email from Gurvir about it, met you guys. Couldn't imagine you guys being so successful so quickly. So you guys be really proud of yourselves. Everything you achieved, really well done. From my perspective, I guess there's some real. It's been a real roller coaster. It's been, it's been up and down all the ways it is classically with kind of founder life and founder story.

02:05
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I think the big highlights were also pushing to the us so that was always A big part of business plan. So we've got some big NFL teams now using our products like Atlanta Falcons and we have products sold to Buffalo Bills, Washington Commanders and then the real highlight has to be products in space. So were part of the Polaris dawn mission, so we had all four astronauts wearing and utilising Hytro in space to help obviously with retain a bone and muscle health. So that was a fantastic moment for us. It was a bit one of those pinch me moments and just one other, one quick one would be the Alpine Formula one deal as well. So again, I've been like a Formula one fan my whole life to then cut a deal with them.

02:43
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And they came to us about that as well, so we'd work in their academy. They came back and said we'd like to form a partnership. That was a great moment for us.

02:50
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously the name you've just thrown out there, massive. Right? How is that process from where you were to then being able to get those names like what did you do and how were you able to get those big deals over the line?

03:00
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, it's never simple, right. The life of a startup is never kind of linear, as you well know. I think also you guys know really it's all about the network and the community build, which again why you guys are so important. So for example, getting into space, it took a conversation with one person, led to another person, led to another. We ended up on a phone call, so I say video call with the chief human works at NASA. He loved what were doing, he understood the application. He realised there was a SpaceX programme going at the moment for blood flow restriction. He thought we'd be perfect, so he referred us. It happened that they were tendering for BFR at that time and so they've loved what we've got.

03:39
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
They've been trying to put a blood flow restriction product in space for about 20 years and they couldn't manage it because of the beautiful simplicity of our product and the way it doesn't have high tech in there. It's actually quite low tech. We jumped the queue and got into space really quickly and there's a few things that came into that. So normally to get into space you work with NASA and SpaceX for years and you build a case and eventually you end up on a space programme. It was in March 2024 we got first in contact with SpaceX. In September were on the Polaris Door mission going into space and that is really ridiculous.

04:14
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
That timeframe and it's a combination of having the right product, the right time, the right backing and right advocacy, but also an incredible team from our perspective, executing particularly Joe and Warren from our team did a phenomenal job making SpaceX life easy, showing the value of what we're going to do and running the study for us. So really proud moment as a founder for seeing that happen. And were all there watching it on our phones and things like the rocket going up, going art products in that.

04:43
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, we always use it as an example as well. It's like he was one of the first podcast guests and now he's in space. It was like the proud kind of movement, isn't it? Right.

04:51
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

04:52
Amardeep Parmar
And before you came on as well, I told you about listen to the episode from last time and if you could go back and tell the person that you heard in that podcast two years ago.

05:00
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

05:00
Amardeep Parmar
What advice would you give them?

05:01
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
So. So I heard, I watched another podcast he had recently with Varun from. From Magic and I listened to his answer and actually remarkably similar to kind of my story and the answer I'll give you now, so one is, I don't know if you remember the podcast. I was like, it's really hard at the moment. It's like at that point My kids were 5 months old. I've twin boys who are 5 months. I was going, it's really hard striving to find work life balance. Hopefully I'll be there soon. Right. And it's like now two and a half years later, it's worse.

05:30
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
That perspective it got.

05:32
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I'll tell myself it's how it actually get a lot harder. And you keep thinking, and I'm sure saying for you keep to understand your story, that the neck, it'll better soon from a work life perspective. And it's got harder and harder, more relentless. Is that. Is that what you felt as well?

05:47
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, it's that struggle because you tell yourself, I just need to get to this deal once I got this thing through. And then I think in the way what I say is that the success actually leads to more work.

05:57
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

05:57
Amardeep Parmar
So if I do a really good talk, what it then does like loads of the people that message me, which is lovely. But then it's more work.

06:03
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah. And as you get bigger, more people know you, more people want your time and you've only got so much you can give. I've got, as I mentioned, two boys, so. And Varen was talking about as well. I think he had a kid in 2023. Right. So I have my boys in 2022, twin boys, and so they're just under three now. That's hard work. Then you couple it with being a founder of a high growth startup going through fundraising, it's like it takes you like to your limit. And I've definitely been there through this last two and a half year where I'm like, I'm at my limit, I really am, but you got to keep going. And that's the real challenge is all founders have to have ridiculous levels of resilience. You just, I think it's one of those where I talk to.

06:45
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
When you talk to other parents, everyone thinks they know what a parenting parent is like until you become a parent. And when I was single I was like, yeah, I'm sure it's fine. When you get kids, it's fine, but it's really hard and particularly got twins. And again it's when you talk to founders, people, when you're not a founder. When I was back in the corporate world, I look at founders going, I'm sure they think it's hard. I'm sure it'd be fine. It's not really hard. It's an incredible experience because it's so rewarding. And one of the changes we've seen from myself and from Warren, who's the co founder at Hytro is that we love what we're doing. We love it ever more than we've ever done before. Almost nothing else in the world I'd rather do than lead Hytro.

07:24
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
It's an incredible experience with a science backed product that's got phenomenal applications, scalability. We are bread and butters pro sport. It's a cool environment to work in. We're working with NASA and SpaceX. We've got the US expansion in two weeks. I'm in Boston, I can't tell you who I'm going to see but it's a big wearables company out there. We've got other cool partnerships and stuff happening. It's so exciting, but it's so hard. And I think you guys can probably empathise with that as well. Right?

07:54
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, I think that's a bit, that is a struggle sometimes, right. Because sometimes in the communication of it. Right. Because like me and you are quite open as people, we can chat about this stuff where sometimes people really struggle to tell people that like it's even, I think it's going well externally, it's hard for them to deal with that and it Almost feels like betraying themselves, right. Of like, if you admit that, oh, it's is so stressful when things are going well, then people feel like, oh, we should be more grateful. And it's like you can be burnt out and be successful at the same time. And I think that's something people don't really appreciate enough. Right.

08:26
Amardeep Parmar
It's like, look, all these accolades, all these things that come along, it doesn't necessarily mean that at the same time you have that balance and you have energy and it's constantly finding that again. And I just. It's good to hear people talk about it because I don't think enough people do. I think enough people, like, oh, yeah, but it's going amazingly. Oh, yes, busy. But I think it's the whole case of like, good busy, right?

08:46
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

08:46
Amardeep Parmar
And it's like, good busy. How long can you be good busy for? Is it six months? Is it two years? Is it three years? If you're just busy all the time, what point does it become? Like, you're just resenting how busy you are? And have you done that in terms of growing your team and trying to, I guess, take more stress away from you in some ways in the last couple years?

09:03
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Well, that's a. There's a real kind of cognitive dissonance when it comes to growing a team, where I think I sat on the podcast before saying, when I've got a bigger team, I won't have to do so much of the work. What I do then have to do is manage all the people. And that's quite draining at times. Right. Particularly I've got a brilliant team. It's like, it's absolutely phenomenal people in the team, but at the same time, they're so different and they require so much different techniques from me to make sure they're motivated, they understand what they're doing. Making sure everyone's working towards the same direction. That's challenging in itself. So I have. And actually the workload for me has also increased. So as we've got bigger. So that's where I'm kind of like really stretched as it's.

09:44
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I'm really kind of like, I've got so much my plate, plus the family stuff. It is hard, but the, the impact we're having, the success of what we're having. So I struggle to use that, but it is successes, so it's going really well. But it's just. It's like that counterbalance. Is it always there? And how do. How do you do it? So how do you Balance kind of the trajectory that you've got with the difficulty of like avoiding burnout or going through burnout. I definitely reflection. I'm pretty sure I've been burnt out through this journey, but just had to keep going because there's no other choice. Is that same for you?

10:15
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And I'd say that even right now, I think it was earlier I feel like I'm burnt out right now where I'm. I'm sleeping more than I do normally because I just have to. It's just if I don't do it then I've just got no energy and I feel like I'm a zombie. And the challenge for me is like we're doing this right now. Right. I'm using my hands when I'm talking before and talk, I don't use my hands. I just go into performance mode. And it's that thing of almost like a wind up bunny where it's like I'm constantly doing it. I just switch on charisma, if people call it that.

10:44
Amardeep Parmar
Right.

10:44
Amardeep Parmar
It's just I know from front of an audience I'm going to switch it on. And I don't change mental modes in that it just happens. But the challenge is what people don't see is I need more time in between those to recharge. And even today I'm recording another podcast. This afternoon I quoted a podcast. Yesterday, then I gave three talks. This week I gave like another podcast. And it's just her. That social backwards side is what people didn't see.

11:07
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

11:07
Amardeep Parmar
And I think it is like I said, I can't just take a break because this isn't at the stage to take that break. And it is that conundrum like you said, it's just what I need is more time to relax. But how do I get that? And I think what I've been what I guess the thing because I'm trying to do and saying to you earlier as well is like I'm being really strict about my time now and it's hard because it eats the people please me. Right. It's if I keep saying no to people. But it's also if those people actually understood what my life was like and they still wanted my time, then I probably don't want to help them.

11:39
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

11:40
Amardeep Parmar
Because if they could see actually I'm struggling with them and burns out. But they still think, oh, he should give me his time for free.

11:45
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

11:46
Amardeep Parmar
Then actually maybe I'm not helping kind people. I'd rather help people understand. This is struggles. This is why I can't do it right now. And you want to help empathetic people. Right. And it's same thing. And it's. I know we have the same thing where sometimes people don't help us. I mean, it's just trying to be understanding about their situation.

12:02
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

12:03
Amardeep Parmar
And I guess with you, like, how has. You obviously been a mentor in our programmes as well, Right?

12:07
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

12:08
Amardeep Parmar
And how is that element of been of wanting to give back, wanting to help people at the same time as trying to manage your own stresses?

12:15
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
It's really. The whole thing is really challenging. Just back to your first point about being able to switch it on. So I think you do that brilliantly. And I've seen you do it at events where I've met you at a beginning event. I can see you're tired and I can. I can see, like, you had, like, a tough day. It's really hard. Then you go on stage and it's. It's there and it's delivered. And again, that's something that, again, founders need to have. It needs the ability to be like, this morning, for a good example, like, the kids are caught in chaos. If I. Absolute chaos, like, and I had to get out the door, get some, like, investors calls done and then get here and then try and turn it on as best I can. Right.

12:47
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And you just have to have that switch where you're in the moment. That actually gets through to me. It's like, great, you're being proactive, then. Cool. I can. I can focus my time and we'll get it done. Whereas where they're a little bit more passive and I've got so much to do, it's harder for me to do anything about it. It's just a challenge. There's. There's no. I don't think there's any right answer to this. You can ever feel bad about it. So where you're kind of saying, no, I can't spend time with these people, this is the right thing to do because you've got to protect yourself. But there's also, in my mind, a little bit of sometimes our FOMOs. Like the other day I had a meeting and I was like, oh, my. Really busy. Should I go to it?

13:19
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
But end up being a great meeting, that actually could lead to lots more things. So there's always that. That aspect of it as well. Focus my time and we'll get it done. Whereas where they're a little bit more passive and I've got so much to do, it's harder for me to do anything about it. It's just a challenge. There's, there's no, I don't think there's any right answers you can ever feel bad about it. So where you're kind of saying, no, I can't spend time with these people, this is the right thing to do because you've got to protect yourself. But there's also in my mind a little bit of sometimes art fomos. The other day I was at a meeting and I was like, oh, really busy. Should I go to it?

13:51
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
It ended up being a great meeting that actually could lead to lots more things. So there's always that aspect of it as well.

13:57
Amardeep Parmar
I think what I try and do now, another guest tip for the audience is I try to use rules as much as I can. Okay. So say for example, like if, look at the early days of the podcast, right. Is that obviously you came on, but the people around you in the episodes, it was very varied. It wasn't really startup related necessarily. And now what we have is this quite more strict line of, okay, you've raised either $1 million funding or you've got 5 million revenue. And that makes my life so much easier because before you'd have so many people asking to come on and it's like, I don't really know if you're a fit or not. And then it becomes subjective.

14:29
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

14:30
Amardeep Parmar
And I think when you can put in a rule, okay, that's the line.

14:32
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

14:33
Amardeep Parmar
You even meet or you don't meet it and there's no arguments or discussions.

14:36
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
What you're saying is I wouldn't made the cut.

14:37
Amardeep Parmar
We wouldn't have that. That's a funny thing and that's the interesting thing. But how things work out.

14:42
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

14:42
Amardeep Parmar
And like if you look at it now as well, where so like mentors and like mentees and people ask me for help. So we have the mentorship programmes. I mentor people on programmes. I don't mentor outside of programmes at all. And that's where. And I think obviously I would say some bias. You have a mentor programme. I say the best way for like founders managed at times with that kind of help. Things like if you do it in a structured programme, then there's a, like this is what you're meant to do. Whereas if it's just a random request, especially as you said, like, as you get more successful, as you get larger, it's so hard to do with random stuff.

15:12
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

15:13
Amardeep Parmar
And that's what is toughing. So in the last week I've Talked to about 500 students at events. Right. If I can't mentor all of them, there is no way in hell. But by putting together a programme, some of those can get into that programme. And if I said, even with. Then if I think a lot of people don't do this enough, they don't use the open doors. If there is a programme, it's much better to apply to a programme and get somebody than to randomly message somebody. Because then, like you said, how does that person then fit into their time?

15:41
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

15:41
Amardeep Parmar
And if you're part of a programme, then be proactive.

15:44
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

15:44
Amardeep Parmar
If that person has said they're going to give up time to help you use that time.

15:48
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

15:48
Amardeep Parmar
Whereas like you said, like, if you are having to chase a mentee, that's not the way it should be worked on, that you're helping them. So they've got to stick to the rules, they've got to make sure they come to. And we say these two people, I was like, you've got to come to the sessions prepared.

16:00
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

16:01
Amardeep Parmar
These are the problems I want to deal with. These things I'm struggling with. If you're just there like a lemon, and then it's like, now it's up to the mentor to give extra energy to work out what you need. Yeah, you should be coming like, look, I'm struggling with this. I'm trying to work on my go to market strategy, I'm trying to work out how funding works, I'm trying to work out this. And that's how you can actually be helped. And you've got to make yourself. When you're reaching people like us, you've got to make yourself easy to help by saying that this is the thing I don't understand or this is the thing that I'm struggling with. Is my pitch deck any good? Whatever is right. Can I do a pitch to you so you can analyse it? Right.

16:34
Amardeep Parmar
And when you don't do that and you just turn up and you just chat, it then becomes a harder. It's a. It's a less efficient use of your time.

16:41
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, that's true. Because, I mean, you're like me, like super busy at the moment and you've always been really good about giving up your time to everybody. And I found I can't do that anymore. I gotta be really protective. And you also gotta be a little bit selfish about it as well, because I don't think it's either of our natures to do this. But when you're going into meeting or you've got so much to Do. It's like, actually, how is this person going to benefit the company and ourselves in a way going forward as well? I love to do everything altruistically if we can, but we just don't have the time. So when people use your time, it should be actually coming to the table with, how can it benefit BAE HQ? It shouldn't just be, oh, how can Amar help me?

17:17
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Right, so whether that's funding for BAE HQ or they can help with programming, bring sponsors, something like that, it's good for people to come to you with a reason and rather than just wanting to take from the community, I think that's really important people to understand.

17:32
Amardeep Parmar
Hello. Hello. Quick interruption to let you know a bit more about Bay hq. We're the community for high growth Asian heritage entrepreneurs, operators and investors in the UK. You can join us totally free at thebaehq.com/join. There, you'll get our CEO structure in your inbox every week, which is content, events and opportunities. You can also get access to a free startup fundamentals course by joining. Let's get back to the show. I think there's worse being specific is that like on our website, for example, and listening, you can see what programmes we offer and you can also see how you can get back.

18:13
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

18:13
Amardeep Parmar
And if you can't take the time to just look at that.

18:15
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

18:15
Amardeep Parmar
Then you're like, sometimes people ask me like, oh, how can I get involved? It's like, did you look at the newsletter? Did you look at like, there's all these places which we make it easy for you to find. And doing that, having that bit of being resourceful.

18:27
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

18:27
Amardeep Parmar
Just makes such a difference.

18:28
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Agreed.

18:29
Amardeep Parmar
Because right now you could if you wanted to help us. You go to the website, you look at the like menu and it will have the different programmes you can help us with and you can do that over in the next minute.

18:38
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

18:38
Amardeep Parmar
And you could then sign up and be a patron or you can sign up to your mentor with people like, oh, I'd love to be a mentor in your programme. How can I help? So, like, did you even attempt to like, look, or have you just decided you're going to ask me and take up time so I get a thousand messages a week. Right. When all of these, if it's a lot of like small questions like that, like, think about it, if the other person is busy, can you self serve?

18:57
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And also for you guys, I think people forget because you're growing so quickly, you look massive, is that you're still a startup and you still need money to run and you know, you guys are obviously doing it, you know, without taking anything out the business yourself. The patron is a way of supporting you guys and I really wish people would hope, you know, put their hands in their own pockets and back the community because it's so important. You guys are doing a phenomenal job that I couldn't expected you to do this at the beginning of how we come so far in two and a half years. We go to the events now. It's sold out there. Thousands of pieces people there. The network's so impressive.

19:30
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I've personally got a lot from the network that helped Hytro in the journey, like actually helped with your investment, helped with kind of our legal expertise and so about that later that there's lots of different ways that the BAE HQ has benefited myself and Hytro and it's great for people to also help you guys. So for many people there go and support you guys who patron, there's a kind of different tiers of that people can kind of help you with funding and I really hope people do that.

19:56
Amardeep Parmar
Like, as you said, you've been for like a couple years now, right. And like, what do you think you've changed the most internally about, right, in terms of like, how have you grown as a founder and how have you grown yourself? Because like it's about how much we've grown. Because this episode's about you, right? Like tell us about like how have you grown? What have you learned that you think you're much better of a founder than you were before and maybe people listening could shortcut some of those lessons.

20:15
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, there's a lot you learn. Learning is incredible as a founder and there's different aspects to it as well. I think one aspect that dominates kind of the founding life is fundraising. We operate kind of an always on fundraising model. At the moment we're trying to close relatively significant seed round which hopefully we overline soon. Yeah, absolutely. But what it takes to close that is an incredible effort and you have to do that alongside growing the business. So being able to do both again stretches you incredibly. But the learning curve and understanding of the landscape is really important. And I go back to the conversation with you had with Varun about that and actually for the UK VC scene and it comes down to understanding who's going to invest in your company.

20:56
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And I've had similar issues that he talked about where in a similar area, not quite the same similar area. We've got hardware products which is not the kind of de rigger at the moment, right? Everyone wants an AI product or maybe a vegan AI product, I don't know, something like that. And so we're not classically investable, even though we've got traction, we've got really great pro sports team, we're in space, all that and it makes it difficult to go and get funding from UK VCs and I'm absolutely fine with it. If VCs, particularly in UK, say we want, you know, we only want software, we only want kind of like an API product, we don't do early stage, like be really clear and then that's cool, no problem.

21:35
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
But we don't get that actually what happens, you have quite a few meetings with EC where they say they're early stage. We're sector agnostic, we have these chapters and we're like, great. We check all these boxes, we've got the team that you're looking for, we've got everything you want and you get five meetings in. It's like, no, you don't fit our thesis. Hold on. We covered this. I just wish that landscape was clearer because now we understand that it means we can actually go to who's going to invest quicker and we don't spend the time wasting a lot of time. Can be scaling the business. So the whole piece of fundraising there and then for me, I think my own leadership skills and me as a founder has developed a lot.

22:12
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I think what you realise as you go through the journey, you speak to a lot of other founders, which again AHG is fantastic for that is everyone's working out at the same time. Nobody can come in and go, this is the way you grow this business without any chain of doubt. Because every business is unique and different and we're particularly different as well. I say so it's actually learning how to adapt your style and being clear on kind of how you want to take it forward. So I'm becoming far more decisive on less information. That's, that's a classic founder thing. When I came from a corporate background, it's like you have all the information, all the data and go, okay, so now I can make a decision, I have to move fast.

22:48
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Being in a start, we have to be agile, you have to be fast and getting much more comfortable about doing that. And it also about prioritisation. We were talking about that earlier as well. It's super clear like with the resource we have what moves the needle and what doesn't and anything that doesn't ladder up. As great as it sounds, we're not doing it and being really clear with the team around that. So as the team grows, I need to make sure they understand where we're heading, the strategy around that and what is not to be done as well as what is to be done. And so that's my kind of growth as a leader for Hytro.

23:19
Amardeep Parmar
So few interesting points. And one thing I think about the VCs wasting time in meetings and I think this is a whole power dynamic, right. Which now, because I'm in like an lp, right. Which means I put in a tiny amount of money into a couple of funds, but it gives me a different discharge.

23:34
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Right. Big cheques now.

23:35
Amardeep Parmar
Well, it's like, yeah, it was like, we're broke. But what it is that when you start to analyse VC pitch decks, you start to see the world differently.

23:44
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

23:44
Amardeep Parmar
And I think a lot of times when people start at the beginning, it's like, VC is this mythical thing. Right. Whereas when I look at it now, it's like, does this VC actually have a good thesis? Do they have a competitive advantage? A VC is a startup in many ways itself. And when you start to realise that, you can see, actually a lot of these VCs, sometimes they're presenting a power that they don't really have. And it's something which I've had to be really careful about. Right. Because if you keep promising everything.

24:10
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

24:11
Amardeep Parmar
Then you can't deliver on it. With a lot of the VCs, they're talking to you because they need to show their investors that, oh, we've got all potential investors, that we've got a pipeline of good deals here coming up. Right. And it's that FOMO element of they don't want to say no to you because if you turn up to be a big thing, they won't be like, they had a good relationship with you. And from their perspective, it's like risk mitigation.

24:34
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

24:35
Amardeep Parmar
For the founder, it sucks.

24:36
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

24:37
Amardeep Parmar
And it's really frustrating because I see this all the time with different VCs, and the way I look at it is try to chat to people who've had an experience that VC before and get like an opinion on them. Because if the VC has a portfolio already, one good thing to look at always say is the companies that have failed. Because if you chat to that, those founders, they might be like, oh, they were like, really great, they really supported us and it didn't work out in the end, but they just, they were able to open up doors and they tried their best, or they might say we failed because that VC tried to force us to do something that weren't comfortable with and then they've ruined our cap table. They tried to get us.

25:15
Amardeep Parmar
And it could be actually a lot of stuff there. But if you have a chat with those people, I think that's what I think is the best way. But it's also, you said by having other founder friends, you can share information, you can say, okay, I talked to this VC and they talked to me in this way, or they did this or they led me on and then you then know what's going on. Yeah, so I think that's one good point there. And it's also looking at, say if you think they're stringing you along or if it's gonna be five meetings in, then you say, okay, it's being very clear about what's the timelines of this? Like, what are these other meetings about? Okay, what information do you need and what are your concerns?

25:49
Amardeep Parmar
And I think asking a VC what are your concerns about a business, people don't like to ask it because you want to hear positive things. If they say, oh, we're not sure if this fits our model or thesis, saying a four like meetings in, there's, okay, cool, let's just not do this. Because if you don't know after four meetings, you're probably just wasting my time.

26:06
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I think that comes with confidence as well. So now we're really direct on these kind of things. Like we want in the first meeting, we understand your thesis, we understand your criteria, whether we're investible, but also are you deploying? So it's the point you just made. Like do you actually have money to deploy or are you trying to raise money yourself? Because if that's the case in this environment, how do. And we've spoken to a few VCs who they were trying to raise for a year and a half and they couldn't raise. Right. And it wasted a lot of time. I mean we got some value out of it in terms of strategic help, but it was just, it wasted a lot of time. So have they got funds ready? To deploy is a really big thing. The founder network is so important.

26:41
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
So like Varun took another example. He actually, I spoke to him about a couple of these seeds and he said, don't get to these ones. Here's one. And he introduced me. That's a great way of doing it. That network. Again, through the BAE HQ, we can chat to other founders about which ones do you want to work with and get good recommendations is so important as well as major angel investors. It's a lot easier getting money for angel investors than it is from VCs. VCs as we've been going through this deal at the moment which is very stressful. I think this is a levels of due diligence, a very complicated deal. Level of due diligence is really high and we're almost there. But it's taken months and it's so painful in many ways.

27:21
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Whereas with angel is often like I'll just sign this bit of paper and it's done, it's in bank account the next day. You've got to be prepared for that. And then it also one of the reasons it's so painful because this changes the dynamic of the whole business. Now we're going to have to set up the board in a particular way. We've got the rights rule change like the shareholder agreements will change. We have to operate and we're more constrained. Are we prepared for that? Yeah, we're going into our eyes open but. But we know that we're clear on the trajectory that we're going to. We're going for a billion dollar company, that's what we're going for. That's why you're giving your VC backed. If that's not you want, don't go through VC money. There is easier ways of getting it there.

27:53
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
You can retain more control. You don't have the hassle. You don't have to speak to thousand VCs to get it through. I remember at the beginning someone said oh I saw some posts on LinkedIn, the classic find your top 20 VCs, speak to them. You know, do it in this priority order. Then you get these merely meetings or that's the top 20 VCs that get, you know, speak to all of them. Nos from all of them go to next 20. No's from all of those next 20 keep going. And it's like okay, great. Once you got to number 452 it's like okay because like we're not that classic AI product that everyone wants to invest in. We're different.

28:25
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
But then we now know who wants to invest in and how then they can understand the model and they get the kind of where we could take this. So just really knowing your investor is a big part of that.

28:35
Amardeep Parmar
And you also about prioritisation change a lot as well. Right. And it's. I think it's one of the most difficult things as an early stage founder, you just get excited by things. Yeah. And what I say, what I try to do in my head now, right, is that I ignore good opportunities and great opportunities because, like, then you'll not have, you don't have the time for the excellent opportunities for the, like, the life changing ones. Right. And I think that's one of the big things is that everybody gets obsessed with, oh, this is a good idea. But if it's not a great idea and it's not the idea that you're best at solving, is it just taking time away and like, how do you try to assess that too?

29:06
Amardeep Parmar
Because have you had things that maybe you did in the last couple years which actually in hindsight were just a bit of a distraction that took you away from things and how did you then cut those off when you realised they weren't moving the needle?

29:18
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, that's a constant battle because we get opportunities all the time for different things. It can be partnership or partnership opportunities is a big one that we get. So we've had recently like fitness providers come to us and go, we really want to work with you. And they've got great big platforms with potential audiences. For us, we had to really look at it like that audience is not our audience right now, when actually we should pursue it with someone who really fits what Hycho wants right now. Even though it's like, oh, there's half a million we could tap into on that. The flip side of that though is like the NASA Opportunity in SpaceX. The NASA Opportunity was very different. So that was a Hail Mary really.

29:56
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
So is one of those when you have no idea where it's going to go and you have to really weigh up. So were like, do we go out to Houston, take the team out there could be complete waste of time and money when we don't have a lot of money or do we just go, okay, we're not going to do it. And we just, we had to take a punt and you just have to take a bit of risk. And we did it and obviously ended up being on Polaris dawn and got another space mission next month. So we're in Fram 2, we're on application in for two others. So we've got a whole Hytro space programme now off the back of that and taking a punt on it. It goes, it links for me in terms of to.

30:32
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
To risk and how interesting your perspective on this in a second. But how you get really comfortable with risk as a founder and I don't think other people who suddenly get, who aren't founders getting transplanted into the shoes of a founder will go, this is normal. Like the kind of risk you play with on a daily basis because it's constantly rolling the dice on existential matters for the company where it could all go south really quickly. But you have to roll the dice to grow. And it's like a really kind of really conflicted balance that you have to do. And where most people go, non founders would go, that's a risky thing to do. Probably shouldn't do that. We as founders go, hell, we're doing that because we know we have to do it to get to the next stage.

31:16
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And if it goes wrong, that's the consequence, unfortunately. So it's a level of risk appetite that is unnaturally high that you are comfortable to live with. It leads to very high stress levels. But again, you have to live with those as well. Right. And I think is that similar for your experience?

31:32
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, I think it's where at the be. It's always like you said, how as you get bigger it almost becomes more stressful at the beginning. Putting employees doesn't matter.

31:40
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Right.

31:41
Amardeep Parmar
If like, if it doesn't work out, cool, I go and get a job, whatever. Right. Once you've got employees, you've got a team, you've got people, clients who are depending on you've got customers. It's actually way more pressure. And it's weird because like you said, even on that scaling journey, you have to keep taking more risks. And it's one of the things I think, like I said, I think we're a couple of episodes like people don't necessarily understand that the bigger you get doesn't make it easier and it doesn't make it less stressful because even if you have an amazing team, you're still responsible for that team having payroll and like meeting getting salaries. And if they've got kids, you're dependent. If they can feed their kids is so much that guy.

32:17
Amardeep Parmar
And it's just you want to grow, you want to scale, you make bigger impact, you want some billion dollar company in your case and it's just along that line. You just get more comfortable with those things. And it's also understanding in some ways that it's nothing is ever guaranteed and it's just you make these bets. If it doesn't work out, then you've tried as long as you've tried your best, right?

32:37
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah.

32:38
Amardeep Parmar
It's like you've just given up. It's not like you've just, you've thrown somebody on the bus. But it's just if the reality is that a guild doesn't come through and you have to let people go and it's, it sucks, but it could be the situation and it's just, that is just a game you're playing. And if somebody's going to work at a startup, they also need to understand that too. It's like it's not going to be always safe because you're taking a risk and the rewards are massive. But then the rules are only massive because there is a risk involved. Right.

33:04
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah. We're really clear when we hire at Hytro that this a startup and it's a risky environment and we can't predict the future as much as, you know, we're getting funding in and everything at the moment. It's inherently unstable. But just to your point about, I think when I was in the podcast before I talked about, oh, it will get better kind of thing. I agree, it doesn't. It just gets more difficult in different ways. And the challenge to me, as it is probably to you, is to find ways to live in the moment and not go, it will get better in the future because I don't think it ever does. It just gets harder in different ways. And that's what I'm trying to think about now is like, how do I make it so I have some semblance of work life balance.

33:43
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I get some more sleep, but I get some exercise and I can continue to deliver for hydro because I think when I, when we, when I was on the podcast before, I was getting very little sleep. The boys were five months old. I'm still getting very little sleep. They're now climbing up to three and they're really hard work. And I've still yet to find the way out of that. I'm getting slightly getting back in the gym now, which is good, and getting that bit. But I've got to still find a way that I can rest more, recover more because otherwise you're in a perpetual state of being burnt out. And that's, I definitely feel like, you know, times in the last few years I've been close to that or there probably. And there's got to be a way through that.

34:22
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
And I speak to a lot of founders about it. Everyone's in the same boat where they want to say that, say or not, if you've got a high growth startup, you're going to be really like up to your max and you've Got to find ways to find time for yourself, find time to recover. And it's a struggle because the mentality is always, I need to work, I need to get on with this. So classic get up. 6, 6am okay, carry. Start working straight away. And I did that today right before I came on the podcast. I've got an Overcome the podcast. I've got another couple hours to do that. Get up, work straight away, kids, wake up, sort them out, come in, do that. Got to find a way through. Any tips?

34:59
Amardeep Parmar
I think on that side as well. What I've started to realise is just life is never going to slow down. So you've got to just prioritise it now. And if so, for example, going to the gym, right? So after this, go for lunch, I'm going to go for the gym, right. There's going to be people that I don't reply today. There's going to be messages that I miss. There's going to be opportunity I miss out on, but there's always going to be opportunity I'm going to miss out. It's never going to reach a point where I can handle everything. So if I wait for that moment, I'm probably just gonna be like decrepit by that point. And it always comes back to like somebody I interviewed, right. In the early days, like from before BAE HQ, right. Evan Williams.

35:31
Amardeep Parmar
So he's like founder of Twitter. And the thing that struck me, so he was mid-40s at the time. He founded Blogger, Twitter Medium. He's got another startup now. He basically just said like, I regret all those late nights because now in my 40s. Yes, he's a billionaire, right. Which is. I spend so much time on my health now because I work so hard and always health problems. And it's just, it's a challenge because he can say that I hear stage and people like, oh no, I'm be different. Like I'm going to be okay. And it's like you're not. If you don't prioritise your health now, you're going to end up in the exact same state. Let's say you get a yacht. Great, great. But if you've always health problems, because you are hypertension, you've got all these blood problems, everything like that.

36:12
Amardeep Parmar
Is it worth it? And I think that's the thing I'm trying to get back to which I sometimes forget myself. You're safe, find that they're healthy. Nothing else matters. Yeah, like it doesn't matter. If I ever. Well, not going to jinxing from there, but it's just if something happens because I've worked so hard and I'm not going to be healthy in 10 years time or 20 years time, what was the point?

36:30
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, agree.

36:31
Amardeep Parmar
And yeah, it's, and it's even with investors, with any stakeholders, if they're mad at you. Could you spend an hour at the gym in a day to keep yourself healthy? Then you don't want those investors, you don't want those customers and it's, it might make you grow. I don't even think necessarily. It makes you go slower because it catches up with you. Right. It's like you've, I think the phrase is as well, you've got nine to nine problems, two or half problem and then you've got one problem.

36:58
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Yeah, yeah.

36:59
Amardeep Parmar
And it's like, okay, you can do all this great stuff now, but if you just get taken out, whacked out for months because you're in a car for yourself, then all your progress is gone anyway.

37:07
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
It's true. And it's not just health as well, it's kind of relationships. Yeah. Everything around that. So this morning was a really good example where we have had lunch booked in my wife today. So we're going to go for lunch in the morning. I was like, I was super stressed because I was up late last night trying to work on this deal that I've got to try and get over the line. I've still got more to do today on that. It's coming to do this. I wanted to do it, really wanted to be here. I was going out the door. Can we cancel? Can we cancel? Do it some other time. And I could see in her face she was really unhappy about it because we don't do that a little bit too often, to be honest.

37:39
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I don't make enough time for her doing these kind of things, just me and her. And then I got on the tube, I was like, no, that's the wrong thing to do. So I texted her and said, actually, have you cancelled the reservation? No, like let's do it. So let's go and do it because that's the right thing to do. And I, if I don't do that then that relationship will suffer. And I'm already working so much time that I don't spend quality time with the people that I love and I need to do that. And I'm very aware of that. I'm very aware that sometimes I'm not present when I'm with them. And I try to because I'm thinking about work and doing all those kind of things, the classic things I get.

38:15
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I've got to reign that bit in and then go back to the thing we talked about earlier about the switch. So you've got to be in the moment with kids and wife, switch in the moment there, switch next second, and then the auto investor call and be in the present there. And that's hard. That's hard when you care so much about your job and what you're doing, you care so much about your family. To keep the energy up require looking after yourself, which go back to the health point.

38:37
Amardeep Parmar
On that note, we need to wrap up this podcast so you don't miss your lunch. So quick fire questions and you've done them before. So first one is who are free British you think are doing incredible work and  you love to shout them out today?

38:50
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
I give you. Let's start with. Actually, I'm going to mention Varun because I've mentioned a couple times already, right. Similar industry, similar challenges. As I said, he was really helpful in giving intro as well to us. We look at what they do with magic. I mean, you look at Varun's LinkedIn. Like I said to him when I saw it with him, I only met him once. I said to him, can you leave some of the awards for the rest of us? There's so many awards going on there. Fantastic job, really trailblazer there. So well done to him. Another one is Raed Hamandi. So Raed leads Bonham and Brook, the R and D consultant. So I've gotten to know him over the last few years and the values that he has and the way he conducts himself is so impressive.

39:26
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
He's such an impressive as a person, really principled, trying to do business in the right way, try people, treat people in the right way. It's so impressive. He sometimes does it, maybe to the detriment of himself because it's really caring. He really wants to look after people, but that level of values is really something to be really commendable. And then the last one I'm going to mention because he will love this. It's not your classic one that you'd expect, but our lawyer, so Rajiv Samani, he will love this day.

39:53
Amardeep Parmar
You've made his day.

39:53
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
We know Rajiv, obviously Joelson is kind of sponsored at BAE HQ as well, and through that they became our lawyers. And so we've been doing this deal with them for the last four months and he's been incredible. Actually the level of kind of communication, inside intelligence that he's bringing alongside the rest of the Jolson team, like Paul and how they've got this deal through for us. On a call late last night with the guys, they were negotiating for us very impressively. Really impressed with that and it's great that they backed BAE HQ as well and that's how that all came about. So, yeah, Rajiv will be the last one.

40:30
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, you made his day. I know he's going to be so happy. So for those of you who don't know Rajiv, he's been on the podcast a couple of times now as well. He's got a massive smile. I can just see his face right now. So the other part is obviously if people want to find out more about you and what you're up to, where what Hytra is going, where should they go to?

40:46
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Website hytro.com but also kind of LinkedIn. You can find out anything about. But just Google me, you're. You'll see me on there.

40:52
Amardeep Parmar
Is there anything you need help with right now?

40:54
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
Always need help with fundraising. It's like continual thing that we're always doing and then I think anyone who's a US pro sports and college teams are always helpful for those intros. We'll take those.

41:05
Amardeep Parmar
And then so obviously so great to.

41:06
Amardeep Parmar
Have you on again.

41:07
Amardeep Parmar
And like I can say as well, it's like compared to a lot of the podcast guests, you've right in the early days, we've seen each other lots of times now. I've been to football together. Like, it's been so good to have you part of the community. And just like everything you've done in terms of podcast behind the scenes as well, which people don't necessarily see, has been amazing. And that's not the case for everybody, right? Not everybody. Everybody who says I want to help. We put in so much care and effort and really support us behind the scenes. So really appreciate that.

41:29
Raj Thiruchelvarajah
No, thank you. No, thank you. I wish everybody did that. Okay, so I hope everyone can get together as a community and really help what you guys are doing because it's helping the whole of us so much. So well done to you guys. Thank you very much for having me back as well. Appreciate that.

41:45
Amardeep Parmar
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

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