Meet The 4x Founder Scaling The Workplace Learning Marketplace w/ Rajeeb Dey | Learnerbly

00:00
Rajeeb Dey
I think you're only ever limited by your own imagination.

00:02
Amardeep Parmar
That's Rajeeb Dey, MBE, CEO and co founder of Rajeeb. He's a serial entrepreneur who started young.

00:10
Rajeeb Dey
Even at 17. I remember being asked to speak at the party political conferences, all of them, interestingly, even when I was hoping for my bedroom, I remember securing a deal with Santander bank and with Telefonica. That was a key lesson for me. It was not to let age be a barrier to success or ambition.

00:27
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, he has an amazing highlight reel.

00:29
Rajeeb Dey
For me, this was having run, I was Oxford running Entrepreneur Society there. So it's the largest society on campus, second to the union. Started a national campaign called Startup Britain. So myself and three other kind of founders came together and started a national campaign team in sales and product and other functions. Who do you go to for advice? And so that was the genesis of coming up  Learnerbly as this curated marketplace with the best professional development opportunities.

00:53
Amardeep Parmar
You can get a deeper insight into the mind of someone who's been there, done that and still has a motivation to keep going.

00:59
Rajeeb Dey
That's the thing that has kind of as I've grown up, my ventures, I said, have grown up with me. You're constantly, I'm constantly learning, I'm constantly making mistakes, if I'm honest. Like, so much can be done using AI. What is the model that I want?

01:12
Amardeep Parmar
Check out the full episode to learn more.

01:19
Rajeeb Dey
Growing up, I thought I wanted to be a doctor. So my dad's a doctor, my sister's a doctor, everyone around me are doctors. So the part of India, so Calcutta, where my family originate from, I have a strong kind of, I don't know, affinity towards medicine. Like everyone around me seems to be a doctor, so that's the only really career I knew. But I think that was up until the age of 13 and I started to probably start thinking for myself and I just thought, you know, I, I can't do that. This, the studying is way too long. It's. I don't really like being told what to do or like with medicine, it, you know, it is what it is, right? You, this is your heart, is your brain. You can't, there's not that much you can do about it.

02:00
Rajeeb Dey
So I just realized I didn't think it'd be suitable for me and so I didn't, I wouldn't say I necessarily knew at that point that I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but that's when I knew I didn't want to be a doctor. And then I was just exploring you know, what else might be out there and eventually kind of stumbled into being found an entrepreneur, as you said.

02:16
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, you don't really want your doctor to be creative. You want to just exactly what happens.

02:20
Rajeeb Dey
If I cut this? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You don't want it to be innovating too much around your body.

02:25
Amardeep Parmar
But even from a young age you were doing a lot of different things that were looking at student voices and things like that. How did you get started with that?

02:33
Rajeeb Dey
I suppose I kind of stumbled into being a founder. I call myself an accidental entrepreneur. I think what drives me is making a positive difference. If I see something that's broken or I think something could be done better, rather than moan about it, I'd rather do something about it. And so that stemmed back from when I was 17. I felt that school students as the customer in the education system didn't really have a voice. Most countries in Europe had bodies representing school students and were one of the few people not to have one. I came across an organization called Unlimited Unltd and they're the foundation for social entrepreneurs. So they backed me with an initial grant of £5,000.

03:12
Rajeeb Dey
And that I would say was really transformative and really kick started my entrepreneurial career because it really gave me the sense that someone else believed in me because all well and good having an idea, but if you don't do something about it's mean, meaningless. And when I, you know, at 17, to get £5,000, I was doing my A levels at the time. There was a level of expectation and pressure on me that now I have to follow through and deliver on it. And I'm really glad that I did because it fundamentally shifted my entire career trajectory and enabled me to kind of recognize that I am the type of person that likes coming up with ideas and starting things predominantly. They have a kind of a strong social impact as well.

03:49
Amardeep Parmar
What's great there as well, because I think a lot of people are very focused on the huge amounts of money to raise. Right. But with 5k, I'm guessing when you're 17, I felt like a lot of money. And how are you able to use that effectively to actually try to make this into what you hope for?

04:02
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, exactly. I think for me it was symbolic. Right. And as a social enterprise and as doing something more, you know, for social benefit, it's remarkable how much support you can leverage and how much support is out there for people, particularly, you know, a young age. And I think that was a key lesson for me. It was not to let age be a barrier to success or ambition. I think you're only ever limited by your own imagination. And I think that's often a thing that holds people back is this fear of either fear of failure or fear of hearing rejection or.

04:32
Amardeep Parmar
No.

04:33
Rajeeb Dey
But for me, you know, also potentially naive ignorance is bliss, as they say. And so I just went down this path. I kind of fell into different. Different organizations that were doing a lot around youth empowerment and working with young people, thus connected to these other bodies. I came across a charity called the Phoenix Education Trust that were really backing democratic education. So they kind of, in a way, incubated me and housed me and provided that kind of adult supervision for me. And the director of that charity was basically my right hand, and she would support me in what I needed to do. But it was on me to go out there and convince other organizations to help us.

05:15
Rajeeb Dey
And then, you know, even at that young, kind of nascent stage, were getting government kind of contracts around student voice and student engagement in curriculum design and running major programs. We had an event at Channel 4's offices. So it is remarkable what you can achieve with an idea and how much, particularly you want to do something positive. How much support there can be out there for you if you just ask.

05:42
Amardeep Parmar
And I think that's an incredible thing, is that, like I said, I think, as we said earlier about, there's a lot of problems in the world right now, right. And we can do two things, right? We can complain about it or we can do something about it, and you can do both. But if you just complain, it's like, that's adding to the complaints in the world. But the entrepreneur is the one to actually decide, okay, yeah, I can do some. But this. And it might sound crazy, like, you think about it, where you're going to do all the stuff you did at such a young age. If you told people that when you're 15 or 14, people like, no way.

06:10
Rajeeb Dey
Right, exactly.

06:11
Amardeep Parmar
But then you just go and do it.

06:12
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah. And I think that's the thing, is that what's the worst that will happen? If you ask yourself what's the worst that can happen, you know, that there's basically only upside at the end of the day, if it all fails. I still have great experience, you know, would have made interesting contacts, made some level of positive impact or difference, but I could still go and try and find a job or, you know, I was still doing my education on the side, so I had my A levels, went straight into university, you know, was working really hard and that. So I didn't. Nothing was kind of compromised, but it just, it gave me a different dimension and it really broaden my perspective and horizons.

06:48
Rajeeb Dey
And I think it developed a lot of new skills at a very young age that then set me up for what I went on to do next.

06:56
Amardeep Parmar
And you did some amazing work experience as well at university at a very young age too. How did you go about that? Because I know we get a lot from students right now of them asking us about opportunities, but you seem like you carved them for yourself.

07:08
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah. And I think it's about looking out for those opportunities. So I was fortunate. When I was leaving school, I found a thing called the Windsor Fellowship, which is a leadership program for being CME students. So I was accepted onto that program and was sponsored by the bank of England. So I had two summers where I did internships with the bank of England and went through this leadership program run by the Woods Fellowship. And then my third summer. So I. My degree was three years, but I did four years there because I took a sabbatical to run the Entrepreneur Society full time for a year. And so my third summer I got an internship at Boston Consulting Group that was through just applying. And it is obviously very competitive, but I think, you know, it's about checking what's out there, putting yourself forward.

07:56
Rajeeb Dey
And I think it also helped that I had that experience from an even younger age of trying to start something myself. Aside from that, I was involved with like a local youth council. So I was very. Just an active and engaged student. And I think for any young people and kids, like listening to this and watching this, that is something I would say is like, you know, get involved, be proactive, try and make yourself stand out. Because it's really easy to just be, you know, complacent or just do the norm. But actually if you want to succeed in life, you need to try and make sure you. You stand out. For me, it happened to be in a more entrepreneurial path, but also getting involved with kind of youth councils and stuff like that.

08:38
Amardeep Parmar
What's amazing there as well, the amount of focus you seem to have at such a young age. What do you think was driving you there? Because obviously when you're younger, you want to be a doctor and that's what your family had. What was it that made you like, really just keep going and working so hard and having to juggle these different things? Because it's not easy, right, to do that. How did you keep yourself?

08:56
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, and that is a great question. I'm not sure, to be fair. I think it was a sense of both an innate belief that I could. I firstly, I enjoy it. I get a lot of pleasure out of creating and that creative kind of energy and seeing something come to life, having a positive impact really drives me and I think having a supportive family, so interesting. Even though I thought I wanted to be a doctor, there was no pressure from my family to go down that path. If anything, probably the opposite. They were, you know, don't do this. And so it's probably like an alternative kind of perspective from them. But it was, I think, this innate desire to want to make a difference, want to make an impact. And I think it kind of comes a little bit from my parents.

09:38
Rajeeb Dey
So, you know, my mum, who was always kind of a very strong kind of social worker, she did a lot around making the world a better place. She was a kind of a teacher and then she worked my dad in his surgeries as a practice manager and dad being a doctor as well. It's all about kind of helping people. So I think that has really shaped who I am as a person wanting to make a positive difference. And so I think that drive was a little bit innate. It came from a sense of self belief, support from family. And then once you see the kind of impact or like you get these little wins, they then give you more motivation.

10:18
Rajeeb Dey
And I, you know, admit it's not that it was all plain sailing, there were setbacks, but I think that also comes from your mindset. And I think for me, very early on, I, I don't look at failure as a kind of a binary outcome. And I think it's really hard to talk. I don't actually ever believe. I don't believe in failure. So actually there's a quote, a former president of India where he says, failure is the first attempt in learning. F A I L is the first attempt in learning. And for me that's very much the case. And so everything that I've done has just been another experience to take me on that journey. And a setback has just made me kind of even stronger in taking the next step.

10:59
Amardeep Parmar
So one of the things fascinating too is that at this point, like, obviously you're very focused, you've done all these different experiences, you went to a great university, you've led these, you've got so much leadership experience as well. For some people the challenge is where do I go next, right? And for some people it's like, I don't know what skills I have. But at this point, like as you said, you've got, you have legitimate belief in your abilities and you're now trying to make a positive change. But it's how do you choose where to go? Because you must be at different people contacting you and you've almost got the promise of abundance. There's so many paths you could take. How do you pick the problem to then go into? And how did you go about that after University of thinking, what's my next steps?

11:38
Rajeeb Dey
Great question. So after interning at bank of England Boston Consulting Group, I did have job offers from both organizations at the same time. I'd started a listing site called internships.com@university. So just for entrepreneurial internships to connect students to startups. For me, this was having run. I was Oxford running the entrepreneur Society there, so it's the largest society on campus, second to the union, kept being approached by startups and wanted to add jobs to our members. And when I graduated in 2008, it was the start of the graduate unemployment crisis. So there was a big investment bank called Lehman Brothers that crashed. It was a very difficult time for people. Even, you know, really bright, talented students coming out from places like Oxford, their worlds had changed. Like, they may have had offers in different places that were getting taken back and whatnot.

12:24
Rajeeb Dey
You know, fortunately mine hadn't. And in fact, when, interestingly, when I went to Boston Consulting Group and I said to him, look, I want to try my own thing, I, I'm sorry, I'm not going to take this offer, but I really appreciate it. The, the partner there said to me, look, you go and do your own thing and this offer is going to be open for you. We're going to keep this offer open for you for, you know, try it out. If it doesn't work, come back to us. But within six months, I said to myself, you know what? I, I don't want the safety net. I don't think it's right for me. I don't think it's fair because ultimately someone else could be taking that place that really wants that role and that would thrive in that organization.

13:04
Rajeeb Dey
I want to cut the safety net. And so I went back to them and said, look, I appreciate it, but I'm not going to be joining. I think that was important for me to just kind of throw myself in there and really go for it. Not having that thing to kind of fall back on. But, but again, I think it was that the reason I went down that path was I just thought to myself, at the end of the day. So I end up pursuing the internships route and actually launching that as a proper business after university because I thought, you know, this is my opportunity to do something positive. There are all these graduates that are struggling to find work. You know, there's all these startups and SMEs that want talent, but they struggle to find it.

13:42
Rajeeb Dey
I wanted to change the culture around startups and entrepreneurship because as you say, particularly back then, like 2004, 2008, when I was in university, there wasn't the notion of going to work in a startup or being an entrepreneur. There just wasn't the visibility. So I wanted to do something to kind of change the mindset of people. So all of those reasons I just thought, you know, I just want to give this a go. And they said to me, so what's the worst that will happen at the end of the day? As I heard from bcg, there are these companies out there that will be willing to hire me and if anything are potentially even more hirable because I've got this interesting experience to bring to the table and those are kind of transferable skills.

14:18
Rajeeb Dey
Now, a caveat in all of that and to say that I don't take any of that for granted. And I think I was only able to do that because I had a supportive family. And I do recognize that people may not have that behind them, they may not be able to kind of just live with. No, because at the beginning you don't really make any money when you're starting out, right? And so you need to have the support of your family. But I thought the best way to do that is just to do it straight out of university because like a continuation of being a student, you don't have any money as a student, you don't have any money as a founder starting out. So it's all fine, right? But I don't take that for granted.

14:53
Rajeeb Dey
And so I was able to do that because I had my family to fall back on. I could live at home with my parents and they would support me and I make no qualms of that. And that was very fortunate that I had that and that enabled me to do what I went on to do next.

15:07
Amardeep Parmar
I think that's really important point as well about the employability aspect is that a lot of people worry about that as, okay, if I try and do my own thing, then what's going to happen to me. But if you look at the skills you build by working yourself, it just gives you a Much broader overview and the agency, the motivation, all those different things. Like I said, it makes you more employable and it all comes down to your personal circumstances. I just said like when I quit my job, I already had significant savings from working consulting. So it's different to me to do that versus somebody else. And as you said, I think it's always really good at Google caveat because it can be very easy to be lost in a story.

15:44
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

15:44
Amardeep Parmar
And not realize, oh okay, they could do that because of this. And it's also, for some people, that's a sacrifice.

15:50
Rajeeb Dey
Right.

15:51
Amardeep Parmar
They want to live out, they want to have that high life.

15:53
Rajeeb Dey
Exactly.

15:53
Amardeep Parmar
And it's being true about yourself. Right. What do you want?

15:56
Rajeeb Dey
There are trade offs and you compromise and you've got to be like, what's most important to me right now? Is it earning as much money as possible and living on my own and in which case go take the corporate job or is it, you know, feeling fulfilled in what I'm doing, making it, seeing how this goes, in which case kind of follow that path. There's, there's no kind of right or wrong. And actually, you know what, I sometimes admire people that have done it later even more because it's potentially even harder for you because you know, you've got used to earning a certain amount of money, living a certain lifestyle.

16:28
Rajeeb Dey
So then to then sacrifice that is even harder in terms of mental shift that leap of faith is even bigger because as you go on in time, you potentially have more, you might have dependents, you might have more responsibilities, you might have a mortgage. So ironically, it's potentially actually harder. Yes, you might have a safety net and you might have a nest egg built up with savings, but the mental leap you need to take to then give it all up to start something can potentially be even bigger. So for me it didn't feel like such a big leap. But again, it depends on kind of where you're at in life and what motivates you that will help you make that decision.

17:07
Amardeep Parmar
Oh, hello. Quick interruption to let you know a bit more about BAE HQ. We're the community for high growth Asian heritage entrepreneurs, operators and investors in the UK. You can join us totally free at the BAE HQ.com join. There, ou'll get our CEO structure in your inbox every week, which is content, events and opportunities. You can also get access to a free startup fundamentals course by joining. Let's get back to the show. I always say it's about priorities. It's that if, for example, different people have different circumstances. Right. So let's say you have a sick parent and then trying to juggle having a sick parent and doing a startup, it's not fair. But if you've got to decide, yeah, where do you want your time to go?

17:54
Rajeeb Dey
Exactly.

17:54
Amardeep Parmar
And that's a challenge sometimes, is that when we have different discussions with different people, it's about what's your priority? Because yes, ideally you should be able to do what you want.

18:03
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

18:03
Amardeep Parmar
But if you look at your situation, maybe, like you need to spend time with children, maybe you need to spend something else, maybe you're sick and you've got these different things and it's just, is this the right priority and the realistic side of things? As, like I said, it's very difficult to earn money in those early days and with internships, like, when did you get to that point where it was stable and you weren't feeling like, okay, this is now a sustainable business?

18:25
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah. So we ended up raising a small amount, kind of angel funding relatively early on, but also bringing on some big corporate clients. So interestingly, even went on topping for my bedroom. I remember securing a deal with Santander bank and with Telefonica, the telecoms company O2, and were the talent partner for them for Europe and able to kind of monetize the business as well, relatively early. But it, you know, it's not gonna. It wasn't like life Chang money, you're not going to kind of retire on it. But it was enough to kind of pay yourself a salary, hire a team. And for me, that was enough. Again, if I ask myself why was I doing it? For me, it was about changing mindsets and creating a difference.

19:11
Rajeeb Dey
I wanted people to recognize that entrepreneurship is a viable career path, that you can make a job, not necessarily just take a job, and that you can work in a start on a small business and that should be as prestigious or if not more than potentially going and working in a big corporate. And I just want you to kind of raise that awareness. And for me, that ecosystem had changed drastically from 2008 to say, 2012, 13, when like in that period there's a huge amount of kind of awareness and a number of other initiatives that kind of came up which made me feel like, you know what, my original intention for internships has been met. And, and I'm always thinking, where is my energy best spent?

19:55
Rajeeb Dey
Where do I want to now apply my time, passion and thought like my kind of creative energy into solving a next challenge.

20:04
Amardeep Parmar
I always think about this as well, I was like, where people say, compare the London tech ecosystem versus, say, Silicon Valley. And in many ways, the London tech ecosystem started during the financial crisis because all the people before were going into the banking jobs now that all that top talent was looking for something else to do.

20:21
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

20:21
Amardeep Parmar
And you obviously wonder people right, the early days there, but I think in many ways unfair to compare London to Silicon Valley, because Silicon Valley is like 50 years old here. We've done so much in such a short amount of time, and obviously internships and the different things you've done have been part of that too. So before we move on to  Learnerbly, what were you most proud of about internships and the journey you had there?

20:42
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, so actually, between internships and  Learnerbly, I started a national campaign called Startup Britain. So myself and three other kind of founders came together and started a national campaign. President Obama had just launched Startup America, and we had launched three, four months after that. And it was really about kind of galvanizing the UK to get behind business and entrepreneurship. And it was amazing to see the impact that had, like, tens of thousands of people around the whole country kind of engaged, basically all funded by corporate sponsorship and no kind of taxpayer kind of money behind it. And it's really interesting how when you've got, you know, a group of entrepreneurs just all rallying behind the same thing, how much you can achieve. Obviously it helped having the Prime Minister, the ministers and the government spotlight, they were able to convene and provide that spotlight.

21:35
Rajeeb Dey
But that was a huge kind of catalyst for. For change, I would say. So for me, you know, back to your question on what was I proud of? I would say it was. I was not. I cannot say I was a reason, but I was. I was a contributor to the overarching kind of change in mindset and ecosystem building. So whether that be through internships and helping young talent find roles in startups or follow a more entrepreneurial career, or with the work I did with Startup Britain, it's just great to feel like you played a small role in that. And you know what, it's actually really interesting because I still come across people that either say to me, I found my first role through you, or as an employer, they found some great talent through us.

22:18
Rajeeb Dey
And that talent kind of transformed their business or they might, you know, still be working with that person. And so it's always rewarding when you come across people that really benefited from your platform service in some way.

22:30
Amardeep Parmar
There's one more question we've got to learn about it actually. So you mentioned about the Prime Minister spotlight in your work there as well. How are you able to do that to create these connections at such a high level throughout the government and throughout corporates as well at such a young age?

22:44
Rajeeb Dey
Do you know what? That actually started much younger. So it actually started with the student voice work I did at school. So even at 17, I remember being asked to speak the party political conferences, all of them like Labor, Live Dem and Conservatives, about the work I was doing on student voice, student empowerment. And it was, you know, actually as a result of, so I say networking was a really, is a really big thing. It's like making sure you get out, then people know about you having a strong kind of personal brand and knowing what you stand for is really important. And then you find that people come to you. So as I've grown up, I say that my ventures grow up with me and my platform changes.

23:22
Rajeeb Dey
So at school it was around student empowerment, student voice and therefore if there was anything around that people generally kind of knew, okay, if they want an opinion from the media or whatever, they'll come to me and ask for an opinion on that. And actually it was, it's really funny because at 17, when I was still doing my, my exams and I didn't really have anything part other than an idea, there was a big report, it was a big newspaper article in the Times Education Supplement, which is one of the biggest publications in the education sector, which said it had quite an evocative title which was Student Union vows not to walk Out. And there was no student union, there was nothing really. But it was basically the articles talking about how I was looking to create this organization for school students.

24:09
Rajeeb Dey
But it wasn't about getting students to strike. It was about seeing them as co creators and partners in education and change. So that became a catalyst and a snowball for other things. So the media can obviously help. But that was, I think through an introduction from someone that I knew who they knew, a journalist and who wanted to write something about it. Similarly with internships, you know, there's a journalist, Richard Tyler, who is the enterprise editor of the Telegraph. He's someone that knew me from my university time of running stuff at university Oxford entrepreneurs. And he was like, you know, I want to be the first person to write about this. And so when we launched he verse covered that. So I think again and it comes through having those right networks and connections.

24:51
Rajeeb Dey
But you've got to put yourself out there and you've got to be clear about what you stand for in the case of the Prime Minister. Interesting story. There was I. The way that came about was I went to an event at the Institute of Directors but there was a guy called Lord Young who's passed away sadly, but he was the enterprise advisor for the Prime Minister. I went and spoke to him at the time initially about internships just after his talk and he was like, come and see me. So I went and saw him about it and. And then we just started talking about this idea of start stuff of America. He was like, you know, we've been talking at number 10 about Startup Britain doing something similar like this. I had also been talking to a few other entrepreneur friends of mine.

25:32
Rajeeb Dey
So it's just kind of right place, right time, serendipity. Then he connected us to, you know, inch number 10. We went and had a meeting there and then one thing led to another. But it is about putting yourself out there, being open to opportunities and just connecting. Right. And I think also being clear about what you stand for so you can then become a magnet for opportunity.

25:53
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And that last bit is so important because you see many people go to a lot of networking events but you're not really sure what they stand for. And then it's the whole thing. I always think you've got to assess yourself constantly. Right. Okay. If these are things are happening and people aren't prioritizing me, why is that? Is it like, for example, a lot of people would like message me like oh yeah, like can we grab a coffee? I said, about what? Like well, how if I don't know it's about, I can't prioritize it.

26:18
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

26:18
Amardeep Parmar
Whereas when you're really clear about your mission and I think the passion really comes across. Right. And with what we're doing, with what you're doing, is that when people hear that in your voice, it's immaculate. Right. They want to talk to you more because they know that you really care about what you're doing. Yeah. And people underplay that element of like if you can really showcase that you really care about you're doing, people are going to want to support that. As you said, they're going to want to back you because they can see it really matters to you.

26:41
Rajeeb Dey
I think innately people are good and people are good natured and I think there's potentially a fear or there's an ick of networking. And I was talking to this with one of my colleagues the other day and he finds the whole concept really disgusting and a bit disturbing and I just said to him that, you know what, just reframe in your head that concept of networking and don't think of it as a transaction where what can I get from you? Am I like meeting you? It's like, what can I give you and how can I help you? And that for me is my frame. When I meet someone is like, is there someone I know I can connect them to? What.

27:15
Rajeeb Dey
And again, as you say, it helps if you are clear about who you are, what you stand for, what you need, what you can give, then it enables others to help you more and you to help others more as well. And that's just the kind of world that we live in and people are willing to do that, but obviously people are so very busy and so it's not always possible for you to do that to everyone. But where possible, you know, you do want to kind of pay it forward and, and support other people on that journey.

27:41
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And I think that's the thing, as you get further throughout your career is about the systems. Right. And it's say for example, HQ now is what you're going to be like 250 something. Right. And the beginning is very easy. Oh, cool. Talk to this person, that person. Now I could very easily spend my entire day just doing introductions.

27:57
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

27:57
Amardeep Parmar
And it's now trying to, okay, what's the best way to do this? How do I best connect people together?

28:01
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

28:02
Amardeep Parmar
And I'm on that journey now, so probably like ask you more about that later.

28:05
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, yeah, sure.

28:06
Amardeep Parmar
But I'd love to know more about like  Learnerbly now. Right. So you've obviously done so much in your early career and you send your, as you grow up, your companies are maturing with you. So what was that next challenge you wanted to take on?

28:16
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, so if you think about it, internship is about helping people connect to kind of entry level talents. Once you've hired these people, what's the next step you need to develop them? Right. And what I was noticing, particularly among startups, SMEs, smaller companies, they don't necessarily have large people teams. They more than likely don't have a learning and development function, but particularly younger people or actually all people, that there's an innate level of curiosity and a need to learn and grow, which I would say is even more so in the younger generations that they kind of demand from the employers to know what are you going to do for me to help my career progress? So often that's quite hard for smaller companies. And there's also no quality control in professional development, anyone can be a coach, anyone can be a trainer.

28:59
Rajeeb Dey
You and I can start a coaching business now. There's nothing really stopping us. We just have a nice website and then charge a fortune and by the time you actually know it's no good, it's too late, you already spent the money, but more important, you've wasted your time. At the same time, I was noticing that a lot of companies were giving employees like an allowance for their development, maybe £500, it might be more, but it often would never get spent. People just don't know what to do with it. You don't know what you don't know what's good or you rely on word of mouth. So I know amongst founder communities I'm really fortunate, I'm really well connected to in a number of different communities.

29:31
Rajeeb Dey
But if I've got a problem or if I want to know more about something, I just ask on WhatsApp on or an email and I can just get recommendations. But if you're in marketing or in sales and product or in other functions, who do you go to for advice? And so that was the genesis of coming up  Learnerbly as this curated marketplace with the best professional development opportunity. So the ability for us to kind of quality control the vendors on there, to have a feedback loop where there's reviews left by employees at hundreds of different companies and for us to manage the end to end procurement process so that you're not restricted to one vendor.

30:05
Rajeeb Dey
Because what typically happens, particularly in the larger companies, and we've actually now moved more upmarket to larger businesses, is that you might just have like one vendor that is available to you. It may not work for you for various reasons. You may not like online learning, you might not like the vendor and therefore you don't engage with it. And for you there's no opportunity cost whether you use it or don't. But the company has spent a lot of money on buying that thing in and they believe that maybe people don't care about learning, but actually that's not the case. It's just they don't care about the thing you've given them. If you can meet them where they're at and you hyper personalize it, you'll find that people do care about the development.

30:41
Rajeeb Dey
And so our whole model has been about flipping L and D on its head and about really important, empowering the employee to own their development. And that happens by giving them a stipend, giving them a budget. It could be modest, it could be you know, in some cases very generous, and then allowing them to discover what they want through  Learnerbly, like through our recommendations. And it's also multimodal, so it could be books, courses, coaching, e learning, podcasts, articles, videos, however you like to learn because you recognize that everyone's different and unique. So we want to meet you where you're at and streamline that whole process for the employer. So they just get one invoice, they don't have to beholden to one particular vendor. And the employees can choose, pick and choose. I want three months of this.

31:23
Rajeeb Dey
I want a year of LinkedIn, I want a three months pluralsight or O'Reilly whatever it might be, they can have access to it through  Learnerbly.

31:30
Amardeep Parmar
So obviously  Learnerbly is you've already created several companies beforehand. What do you think that you learned from those other companies that enabled you to make  Learnerbly a lot better from the start than you would have done without that previous experience?

31:43
Rajeeb Dey
That's a good question. I think you're constantly. I'm constantly learning, I'm constantly making mistakes, if I'm honest. I think the thing personally is around my own leadership journey as I go on. I'm learning more about myself. I'm learning more about what makes me who I am, what I'm good at, what I'm not. So that's that lot of kind of self discovery. And I've also, I'm kind of clear on what I'm good at and what I'm not. And so for me, early on in each of my ventures, there's always, it's been important to have like a, a number two kind of a COO type person who really looks after the internal workings of the business, whilst I'm more of a sales leaning, marketing leaning outward facing and doing all the investor relations, board management, that kind of stuff.

32:30
Rajeeb Dey
So I think it's leveling myself up and you know, I'm still a work in progress. I don't think you're ever, no one's perfect and I'm certainly not. And so I'm constantly learning and challenging myself and trying to become a better version of myself and trying to push myself in other areas. But that I would say is that is that. And then the first time around we didn't end up raising venture. The second with  Learnerbly, we did raise venture. So that in itself is a different journey, a different skill set. There's a lot of storytelling involved. You've got to really convince people to part with a lot of money, but really believe in you. And your vision and that your ability and your team's ability to kind of execute on that. So I think that is also important.

33:10
Rajeeb Dey
I think it's also important to recognize that venture is not for everyone and it's not the be all and end all. And I think particularly with the changing economic climate that we've seen is where, you know, money has dried up. Like, it is harder to raise money but also attitudes of change and I think for the better. Right. There's a huge focus now on getting to profitability rather than just grow at all costs. And we've gone through that transition as well. So I think that's not a bad thing, to be honest. I think particularly in the frothy days, it's just when money was more available. It's just like just raise as much money, grow the team as big as you can as fast as you can, just grow at all costs. And that's even if it's not sustainable. And I think so.

33:49
Rajeeb Dey
We've gone through a lot of ebbs and flows and a lot of changes in the kind of psyche of the founder and startup ecosystem. And it's not easy at all. Like, I'm not saying it's easy, but I think, you know, as a founder, you have to be very resilient. And I think that's another thing in terms of that change is like learning to be more resilient is something that, you know, I'm continuing to do.

34:11
Amardeep Parmar
You mentioned there as well about the pivot from growing at all costs to now focus more on profitability and sustainability. What kind of changes do you make there? Because once you've made that decision, obviously affects all different parts of the business.

34:23
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

34:24
Amardeep Parmar
If somebody now is going through that in their heads now, they're trying to make that shift.

34:27
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

34:28
Amardeep Parmar
Well, have you any tips for them there?

34:29
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, I think previously there was this notion of like, if there's a problem, just hire someone. Fake they'll like, or fake it till you make it. Just like, just do it manually and like, figure it out and just put headcount on it because you've got the money. Just, just grow, grow. Now there's more like, okay, well we're not going to hire someone. Like, like, let's go back to basics. Let's understand, like, what is it really we need to achieve? You're going to have to be super focused, really prioritize. And ironically, what I found is actually going back and scaling back down to a smaller team. We're probably more efficient and more productive than we have ever been. Because the bigger you get, the more layers of communication, overhead bureaucracy, like things fall through the cracks.

35:16
Rajeeb Dey
Like the lack of clarity and ownership kind of creeps in. It's not always the case, but we kind of found that. And actually being nimble and being kind of super focused and having a more resource constraint mindset actually is quite good for innovation. So I think it just forces you to kind of think differently to ask yourself a critical question like, why do I need to do I really need to do this is the most important thing and why. And now obviously with AI, that's also a game changer. Right. Because a lot of the things that you might have done manually or with people you can think about automating like one person. Every employee really needs to be embracing AI in their lives and thinking, how can I make my job easier for me and more efficient using AI?

36:02
Rajeeb Dey
Because think I particularly engineering as well. Like so much can be done using AI or in all functions marketing or whatever. So I think it's a really interesting time for founders to question themselves and say, like, what is the model that I want? Because I think in the past it was a vanity metric to say, oh, look how many employees I've got, look how big we are, whatever. Actually now I think it's a badge of honor to be like, we're a profitable company and that's like a, a mindset shift, I think in a way we've been forced into. But I think it's a good thing.

36:31
Amardeep Parmar
It's interesting like you said, because as, because we said so tech in the UK is quite young in terms of startups. Right?

36:37
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

36:37
Amardeep Parmar
And you've been through different cycles and seen the mindset change over time. And the AI one recently is like a very sharp one. That's happened Right. With even like Headcount, all these different things where like you said, it's for example, and I'm judging through for the podcast. Right. Who's the right person to come on. We're trying to look at them and trying to work out, okay, how successful are they really? And before I could kind of use Headcount, I'm like, okay, if they've got like 20 employees, they must be making a decent amount of money, otherwise how could they afford them?

37:02
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

37:02
Amardeep Parmar
Whereas now it's not so simple.

37:04
Rajeeb Dey
No.

37:05
Amardeep Parmar
And we have these different metrics to try and proxy to. Okay. Is this somebody who's just bluffing or they actually have success and all these different challenges.

37:13
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

37:13
Amardeep Parmar
But when you look back. So obviously from 2009 when like everything started to where you are today. Have you seen the general market change in the shift in attitudes? Yeah, and like I said, you're a big part of encouraging entrepreneurship in this country in the first place. Yeah, but have you seen that change? Like what do you think the big mindset should have been?

37:31
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, I think you, I mean you kind of summarize it quite well. I think it's is it depends on the lens that you're using. So for me personally I've been quite impact driven and social impact driven. So for me it's been more about what's the. One of my favorite quotes is the Gandhi quote be the change you wish to see in the world. So it's been a what's the change I want to achieve? And everything else is just by the by. Right. And so as an impact social impact driven founder, I would say not much has changed. However, it depends on the environment that you're operating. So I happen to be at least in with internships and learn to be operating in the tech startup, VC backed world.

38:10
Rajeeb Dey
So that obviously has changed radically and as I said like it very much was about raise money scale fast. Doesn't matter if you're not making, if you're not profitable, whatever just, just do whatever it takes just to grow to now having like real focus on unit economics and the basics. So, so I think it's interesting and I think the proxies you said from an outside it can be quite hard to kind of tell and we're still in that phase at the moment. It's still yet to be seen because we're seeing companies now, AI companies that are reaching 100 million with 10 people or 15 people. The headcount is no longer proxy of real growth. But I think it's just being about like what is it that is your North Star and is it impact?

38:59
Rajeeb Dey
And some of that is obviously a kind of financial growth obviously. But that can just, you know, that is changing quite drastically I'd say as a result of AI.

39:08
Amardeep Parmar
And you mentioned as well about the thread that's connecting everything in your journey so far and obviously there's still a long way to go for you. There's so many more things you can do in the future. What excites you about that? How do you see your mindset and philosophy from what you've done to continue onwards?

39:22
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah, so I'd say that the golden thread in all of my things. So whether it be student voice at school, internships university startup written, you know, straight after between internships and  Learnerbly now  Learnerbly, you know, helping people be their best self at work. I'd say the one word for me that really resonates is the word opportunity. So it's an opportunity to have your voice at school, an opportunity to working startup, an opportunity to be a founder, an opportunity now be their self at work. So that's the thing that has kind of as I've grown up, my ventures that have grown up with me. I would say moving forward.

40:01
Rajeeb Dey
One thing that I'm particularly interested in if I go back right the way to the beginning when we started the interview about what did I want to be when I grow up was talk about being a doctor. If I think about that and my influences around medicine and then my own personal kind of health journey, you know, more recently, I've really kind of struggled with a lot of back pain problems. And as I've delved into, I've tried all sorts of interventions and treatments and whatnot. And it's been really stubborn. It's been, it's been for kind of many years now. I had to have emergency surgery back in 2020 during COVID I've also come to recognize a strong mind body connection link. And actually a friend of mine pointed out a book to me called Healing back pain by Dr.

40:44
Rajeeb Dey
Sarno and he talks about a condition called TMS and how particular like founders like, they're just classic type of people that are likely to get this neck, shoulder and back pain from tension and stress. And I think what I've come to recognize is that particularly like in my 20s and even probably early 30s, if you would ever ask me, are you stressed? I would never say I'm stressed. I genuinely do not connect to that phrase stress because I would like really love what I do. I would connect stress as being like I'm miserable or whatever, but. But my body, like as you grow older, you realize that, look, your body just can't just. It's going to rebel. And that's kind of what's happened to me, is that the body's just like, enough's enough. You operate at a.

41:37
Rajeeb Dey
I've been operating at least at a pace which is unsustainable for such a long time as since my 17, you know, I'm going to be 14 December. So for a long time I've been operating at a certain level which I don't think is sustainable. And my body's not telling me that enough's enough. And so things have to change do I think what your question around, like, what might be coming next? I'm really fascinated. So obviously there's still a long way to go with  Learnerbly. We're launching a new product in the AI people analytics and talent management space, which is still in stealth. I'm super excited about. So there's still stuff I want to achieve with this business, but I can imagine in the future looking at the health space, given my own experiences, looking at what the experience that other founders have gone through.

42:24
Rajeeb Dey
And my sister is both a GP and an ayurvedic doctor. So I think in the east, there's a lot to learn about holistic medicine and looking at the whole. And I think at the west, we're not good at that. Like, we very much go straight to like, well, you know, one tablet solves all problems. And like, it's just, you know, with back pain, you immediately MRI the person. You see disc bulges and it must be the bulge causing thing. You don't. If you look at the psychosomatic, you don't look at the whole kind of the whole person. And so that's something that really fascinates me and something that I'm on a journey to learn more and I think I'd like to do more to bring some of those eastern philosophies into the West.

43:05
Rajeeb Dey
And again, it's about, you know, if I think the opportunities, opportunity to live your most wholesome life. And, and at the end of the day, it puts everything in perspective when you get ill, you realize, what is the point of all of this if you don't have your health, you know, you've not got anything.

43:22
Amardeep Parmar
I think, what's the phrase about, like, everybody's got nine to nine problems, they've got a health problem and then they've got one.

43:27
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

43:28
Amardeep Parmar
And one. One of the funny things. I'm going to reveal this now, which might give me trouble with future podcast guests. So I've got like a background in like martial arts for like many years. Right. So I have a massive tension in the shoulder. So even as I'm doing this interview, you notice my head tilts a bit this way. Right. That's because the shoulder is really tight.

43:45
Rajeeb Dey
Interesting.

43:45
Amardeep Parmar
So when I've got to like massage and stuff. Yeah. If my head is always like, I can obviously put it back straight again.

43:50
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

43:51
Amardeep Parmar
But it will naturally tilt this way a bit so it makes me look like I'm really paying. Intense intention.

43:55
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

43:56
Amardeep Parmar
So my head just tilts this way too. So it's a Natural thing. But it's one of the weird, unfair advantages.

44:00
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

44:00
Amardeep Parmar
Because my hill sits. Tilts that way when I listen to people. It's this extra signal that I'm listening.

44:06
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

44:06
Amardeep Parmar
But it's not intentional. It's just my head goes like that.

44:08
Rajeeb Dey
Yeah.

44:08
Amardeep Parmar
And it's even as you're talking straighter. So that it's a classic thing. And it's so. It's so easy to just get lost in the next problem, firefighting all the time. But then if you don't make time for your health is going to force you, like you said.

44:22
Rajeeb Dey
And what I realized was that as a founder, I don't know if it's the founder of just Me. My character type is that I'm so used to being constantly on 247 and constantly distracting myself. So I don't think I'm very good or comfortable in just being like for me, my diary. Like bam, bam, bam. Like very goal and achievement oriented and that, you know, the book talks about this and this is why people like us getting. And I recommend you either too if you've got kind of shoulder pain, get into these problems. And so like one thing I'm planning to do next week is I'm going on a Vipassana. So you know, doing 10 day silent retreat. No devices, no writing, no speaking, no reading, just being 10 hours a day of meditation. And it's not like on the.

45:11
Rajeeb Dey
I hardly meditate at the moment anyway. So I'm like literally throwing myself in the deep end. But it's about me learning about myself and doing and being a big reset, I would say, of my body. Because I do feel like there comes a point where, well, at least I feel that I need to kind of reconnect to myself. And I'm just classic, you know, even if I'm exercising, I'll be listening to a podcast or if I'm like, you know, you're watching something or like there's always some kind of distraction. And I think it's important sometimes to be like nothing. Just, just be comfortable and present and just be other. We are human beings, not human doings. And I think we forget that. I think I have forgotten that. But.

45:51
Rajeeb Dey
And I need to, I think my health issues more recently have kind of been a big flag to say, look, you know, you need to do something about it and you need to live in a more sustainable way. Because I do think, you know, stress is a contributor to so many other forms of disease and ultimately for even the back pain you don't want to wish it on anyone. It is horrendous, but it's not going to kill you. Right. So it can be debilitating. It's not going to kill you, but it could have been a lot worse. And so again, I'm very. Quite a spiritual person and I'm eternal optimist and grateful for stuff. So I do see it as a. As a gift for me to kind of learn something from and become stronger as a result.

46:31
Amardeep Parmar
You said your character there is very goals orientated. Right. But you've been an entrepreneur for 23 years. Do you think your character has changed in that period? And how do you think it's changed?

46:41
Rajeeb Dey
I would say more recently it's. I probably learned to just get a bit more perspective on things. I think when you're younger, you do feel like you're invincible and you. And. And at least I know that I would just operate just a totally unsustainable pace now as time has gone on. And I would say this is probably more recent. So were talking earlier about family grief and like my mum passed in September last year and I. I think that also was quite pivotal in. And that was also a trigger for a lot of the pain as well. So I did have pain, but there was also a bigger trigger. So you can already see the strong psychosomatic kind of connection to pain and grief and whatnot.

47:28
Rajeeb Dey
So I think for me it's been about putting things in perspective and recognizing that you have to operate in a more sustainable way. And actually by looking after yourself and changing, you can be a better leader. I think there's. At least previously I would feel that I would always have to be present, I would always have to be the person to have all the answers. Interestingly, I had to take a few months out of work because of the pain and the business ran fine. The business ran really well actually. And actually for me that was a really great sign because it means that things can run without you. You do not have to be the single point of failure and you shouldn't be a single point of failure.

48:10
Rajeeb Dey
So I, a founder, like something that I'm always thinking about, think about succession plan, think about business continuity because you don't want to be a botanic. And I think at the beginning it's impossible. But as you build up a team, really think about the systems and processes and people that can make sure that you are not the single point of failure.

48:29
Amardeep Parmar
So really enjoyed your story and everything you've shared today. Going to go to the quick fire questions now.

48:34
Rajeeb Dey
Sure.

48:35
Amardeep Parmar
So, first question is three Asians in Britain you think are doing incredible work and you'd love to shout them out?

48:41
Rajeeb Dey
I want to shout out Bonnie Chung. So she's a founder of a company called Miso Tasty. She's left that business, but she has just. She's someone I've known since I think were like, 17, 18, and just her journey, it's been incredible. And she's gone through really, you know, interesting and turbulent times at the same time, but she's been so resilient and she's writing a book about it. It's going to come out in due course. So she's great. There's a guy called  Owais Peer, the guy who set up a company called Global App Testing. Again, he stepped away from the company, but super interesting guy. Have a lot of time for him. And then there's a guy called Dr. Rupy Aujla from Doctor's Kitchen. Whilst I don't know him personally, love his content online because of the wellness connection, the medical connection.

49:27
Rajeeb Dey
Really love the stuff he's sharing about, you know, living. Eating more healthily, Living more healthily. So. So those three.

49:34
Amardeep Parmar
Awesome. And then if people want to learn more about you and  Learnerbly, where should.

49:38
Rajeeb Dey
I head to so you can go on  Learnerbly.com? Me personally. Follow me on LinkedIn. So, Rajeeb Dey on LinkedIn and any.

49:45
Amardeep Parmar
Way that people listening today could help you?

49:48
Rajeeb Dey
So, actually, as I mentioned briefly, we are launching a new product in the AI People analytics kind of space. We're really keen to speak to chief people officers, heads of People Analytics. So if people are in kind of an HR field, we'd love to kind of chat to them about the new product and just get their feedback.

50:06
Amardeep Parmar
Awesome. So thanks so much for coming on. Any final words?

50:10
Rajeeb Dey
It's been a pleasure. I know it's been hard getting this in the diary, but I'm glad we've done it and thanks for having me.

50:16
Amardeep Parmar
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

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